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Pastimes : Discussion Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Rambi who wrote (3206)2/18/2009 9:08:57 PM
From: TimF  Respond to of 3816
 
A living wage

18 Feb 2009 08:36 am
In the context of a discussion about why one low-skilled worker's salary is no longer enough to support a family, MC writes:

Look, there have always been people who could command a wage that could support a family, and people who could not.

In the old days, the people who could not were called women. And various other names related to skin color that I will not include here. That whole notion of earning a family wage with no specialized education or skills only applied to a subset of the population, and the organizations protecting their interests worked to keep it that way.

Nowadays, white men have no special protections. If they want to buy a house and raise a family, they need to learn a trade better than Walmart clerk. And they may need to move away from depressed rural economies.

The gain is that a lot of people who never had a shot at the good jobs in the past do have that shot now. White men are competing with everyone now, and they can't coast.

They are even competing with the entire populations of China and India. Terrifying thought, but you can't get around it.

The 50s were fake, so we can't really use them as our baseline. And even that fake only applied to some people.

It's also worth remembering that companies were not only legally allowed, but expected, to pay married men more that anyone else, and that ordinary people lived much, much more modestly than they do now. Many workers lived with other family members, or in rooming houses--the houses in television and movies from the era are, just as now, abnormally large because average-sized houses would be too small to film. In the popular mind, every blue collar worker in 1950 was pulling down a hefty wage at GM, but union membership peaked at about a third of workers, and most of those jobs were at companies that didn't have the profits, or the freedom from competition, to support those kinds of wages. A lot more blue collar workers were people like the mechanics and pump operators at my grandfather's gas station, who raised families on . . . the kind of money you could generate working at a gas station.

Our memories are distorted by two things: first, the tendency of all cultures to focus on their own outliers (many fewer people work for silicon valley startups in real life than in either our entertainment, or the popular imagination), and second, the fact that the people who have written about the period are abnormally likely to have come from successful families who pushed them through an education. Their memory of a well-appointed blue-collar childhood in a nice suburb on Dad's generous steelworker wages endures; few memories of a straggling blue-collar childhood as the child of a factory janitor do, because those kids were less likely to go to college and become people of letters. The successful and educated are disproportionately likely to be represented in all parts of our written and spoken culture, from man on the street interviews to letters to the editor. History really is written by the winners.

Comments (114)

This is all vitally important to remember--there's an awful lot of selective remembering going on. It's also worth noting that if our per-capita GDP were to fall by 20%, we'd just be back to the 1970s...not exactly the stone age.

Posted by Rich in PA | February 18, 2009 9:24 AM

What wage would one have to earn today to be able to raise a family in the style of the median household of, say, 1955?
The answer is probably, not much. It's not clear that the median family had a car, and if they did, it didn't have air conditioning, any safety features and broke down a lot. So being able to afford a really crappy used car now will suffice. How much does it cost now to rent a very small apartment or house with no dishwasher or air conditioning? How much does it cost now to get 1950's quality medical care? You can't count cost of most drugs because they simply didn't exist then. You get cancer, you die. You don't eat out, even fast food, more than a few times a year. When you eat at home, you eat a lot of very low quality canned food. You get to count for clothing as much as it costs to keep your family warm, which, given Wal-Mart is close to free now, but not then. No expensive sneakers. No cell phone. We don't even have party lines anymore, so count the most basic local phone charge. No cable. In fact, the cost of a black and white TV is basically zero now. No air travel (the median family in the 1950's didn't travel much by car, much less by air.) No pampers. You wash your own cloth diapers. Anything else?

Posted by Chris | February 18, 2009 9:24 AM

meganmcardle.theatlantic.com

I am talking about real wages. The real income of a median family of four in 1950 was close to today's poverty line for that family. Of course, the cost of some things, like housing in certain desireable urban areas, has gone up (but that's coming down now, and at any rate, the housing bubble is hardly Wal-Mart's fault). But the cost of other things, like food and clothing, has plummeted. We romanticize the real, unprocessed food of the era, but that real, unprocessed food was only available in most areas during a fairly short growing season. My parents and grandparents ate canned fruit and vegetables 8 or nine months of the year in Western New York; fresh produce was very limited except in high summer. The reason iceberg lettuce was such a sensation was that it could be grown in California and shipped without rotting, not because people in the 1950s didn't know about other kinds of lettuce.

It's also actually true that many appliances of the era broke frequently--it's just that all that has survived until now is the super-reliable ones, so we say "they don't make things like they used to". Ditto furniture, houses etc . . . the cheap crap didn't make it to the current era, which is why, for example, we have this illusion that the Victorians all lived in marvelously well-built homes, because the only Victorian houses around are the mansions of rich people.

Posted by Megan McArdle | February 18, 2009 10:02 AM

meganmcardle.theatlantic.com

Goof topic, Megan.

I had this same discussion with my sister a few months back.

If people wanted to live "like back in the 50s", they need downgrade their lives and slow the hell down.

Go find that 1200-1500 square foot, 2-bedroom house with one bath. Put one modest car in the driveway, chop your possessions in half or more, get basic, basic cable, put one TV in the living room with nothing attached to it, throw the cell phone away, keep just a few simple toys for the kids and keep their clothes for hand-me-downs and eat in 6 days per week and you'll be on your way to that nice, cushy, middle-class life-style....not even the level of the lower classes of the time.

Do all that and watch your disposable income and savings soar....even on a lower-middle class wage.

The problem is not one of empirical indicators of well-being and wealth. The problem is human nature. People don't judge their life style on some static scale. They judge it relative to those around them and those "doing better". It's the classic case of "keeping up with the Jonses'"

And yes, I'm sure we had this same problem back then as well. I find it hard to believe that most people were sitting around marveling at their own life. They were looking at what others had and always feeling like they could and should have more than actually do. It's human nature and it's never going to change.

Posted by John V | February 18, 2009 12:09 PM
meganmcardle.theatlantic.com



To: Rambi who wrote (3206)2/18/2009 9:09:34 PM
From: TimF  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 3816
 
am assuming you remember CW getting into trouble for his webpage

No I don't remember that one, what happened?



To: Rambi who wrote (3206)3/2/2010 2:52:08 PM
From: one_less  Respond to of 3816
 
We all expected this didn't we?

High court looks at reach of Second Amendment
Updated 3/2/2010

By Joan Biskupic, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — During a spirited hour of oral arguments Tuesday, the Supreme Court appeared ready to rule that the Second Amendment right to bear arms applies to firearms regulation in the states and cities.

Several justices, including Anthony Kennedy, signaled by their questions that they believed the right to firearms is sufficiently "fundamental" that it should cover people challenging state and local gun regulation, as well as that passed by the federal government.

CASE LOG: Major cases facing the supreme court
Tuesday's arguments in a dispute over a Chicago handgun ban flowed from a 2008 ruling in which the Supreme Court said for the first time that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms. The prevailing judicial view until then had been that it protects only a collective right of state militia, such as a National Guard.

That 2008 case, District of Columbia v. Heller, covered regulation by the U.S. government and federal enclaves, such as Washington. It left open the question of whether the new right extends to firearms regulation in states and cities.

The overriding question Tuesday was whether the newly established right to bear arms is so fundamental that it should protect people against state and local laws. The city of Chicago contends it is not and argues that the Second Amendment is significantly different from other provisions in the Bill of Rights because it involves a right associated with a weapon designed to kill or cause serious injury.

"If (the right to bear arms) is not fundamental, then Heller is wrong," asserted Kennedy, who was in the majority in the 2008 decision and often is a swing vote.

Chief Justice John Roberts, who also appeared ready to vote that the right to bear arms would extend to people in the states, said local governments and "the political process" would still allow some firearms regulations, for example, on how guns could be carried.

Justice Stephen Breyer was most vigorous in asserting that the Second Amendment involves dangerous weapons and should not be accorded the same status as other constitutional rights. "We're starting with a difference in purposes," he said, suggesting that the right to weapons cannot be equated with the right to free speech, for example.

"Even if (city officials) are saving hundreds of lives, they cannot ban (guns)?" Breyer asked skeptically at one point. He dissented in the 2008 decision.

Justice John Paul Stevens suggested by his questions that the Second Amendment right should be limited in the states and that local legislators should have wide latitude to curtail firearms.

Those challenging the Chicago handgun ban include Otis McDonald, who lives on the city's far South Side and says he wants a handgun to protect his family from criminals in his deteriorating neighborhood.

Virginia lawyer Alan Gura, who had been the lead lawyer in the 2008 case and represents McDonald, spent most of his time Tuesday arguing about the particular grounds on which the justices might base their ruling.

The Supreme Court has extended most of the first 10 amendments to the Constitution (the Bill of Rights) to the states and localities through a provision of the Fourteenth Amendment that says no state shall infringe on "life, liberty or property without due process of law."

Yet Gura argued that the high court should extend the Second Amendment to the states through a separate clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which says, "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States."

That rationale got little traction.

Paul Clement, a former U.S. solicitor general under President George W. Bush, represented the National Rifle Association and urged the justices to use the straightforward grounds of the Fourteenth Amendment's due process guarantee.

"The Second Amendment, like the First (safeguarding free speech) and Fourth (guarding against unreasonable searches), protects a fundamental pre-existing right that is guaranteed to the people," Clement said.

Defending the city of Chicago's effort to prohibit handguns, lawyer James Feldman told the justices that the right to bear arms was "not fundamental like freedom of speech and freedom of religion." He emphasized that handguns are regularly the means of violent death and suicide.

"Firearms, unlike anything else that is a subject of the Bill of Rights, are designed to injure or kill," Feldman said.

The justices' votes in the 2008 case split along ideological lines. In the majority were conservatives: Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Kennedy, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito. Dissenting were liberals Stevens, Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and David Souter (who has since retired and been succeeded by Sonia Sotomayor).

At times, Tuesday's arguments in McDonald v. City of Chicago turned testy and sounded as if justices on the two sides of Heller were rearguing that 2008 case. A ruling in McDonald v. City of Chicago is likely by the end of June when the justices usually recess for the summer.
content.usatoday.com