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Politics : Politics of Energy -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Sam who wrote (7544)4/24/2009 10:34:51 PM
From: Brumar89  Respond to of 86356
 
Positive and negative feedbacks are always possible
.....,The issue right now is that we are pumping large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, which is what has various consequences that initiate a number of positive feedbacks.
....
That doesn't mean that negative feedbacks won't happen, they will.


Lets stop right there. Which is it - are the net feedbacks from increased CO2 positive on balance or negative on balance?

Thats the question I asked and it looks like your answer is either or both. Can't be. The feedbacks have to on balance be one or the other. Don't get to pick which based on which assumption is needed for your explanation.

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Looking at your link, I see this:

During the 1990s, further ice core measurements indicated that during past glacial periods, temperature changes had preceded CO2 changes by several centuries. Was it necessary to give up the simple hypothesis that had attracted scientists ever since Tyndall in the 19th century — that changes in CO2 were a simple and direct cause of ice ages? Some scientists doubted that dates could be measured so precisely, but most of the evidence pointed to a time lag.(54) This confused many people. If changes in CO2 lagged behind changes in temperature (and likewise for methane, another greenhouse gas measured in the ice cores), didn’t that contradict the greenhouse theory of global warming? But in fact the lag was not good news.

It seemed that rises or falls in carbon dioxide levels had not initiated the glacial cycles.In fact most scientists had long since abandoned that hypothesis. In the 1960s, painstaking studies had shown that subtle shifts in our planet's orbit around the Sun (called "Milankovitch cycles") set the timing of ice ages.
....
The ice cores now showed, as theorists had predicted since the 19th century, that a powerful feedback cycle was amplifying the effect of the cyclical changes in sunlight. Even a small change in the gas level would bring further changes in the global heat balance, which would in turn alter the gas level, which... and so forth.


He's telling you he thinks the net feedbacks from adding CO2 (and methane) are positive. More CO2 brings more heat which brings more CO2 ... and so forth.

Of course, this assertion just sits there. It isn't established by anything he's said before. Perhaps he thinks a positive feedback in sunlight which he claims means he thinks the feedbacks for CO2 and anything else will also be net positive. Whatever, he doesn't know this. Its an assumption.

Or, more ominously, how a change in the gas level initiated by humanity might be amplified through a temperature feedback loop. The ancient ice ages were the reverse of our current situation, where humanity was initiating the change by adding greenhouse gases. As the gas level rose, temperature would rise with a time lag — although only a few decades, not centuries, for the rates of change were now enormously faster than the orbital shifts that brought ice ages.

This is a confusing passage. He's using past tense to describe the current situation. I think his thinking is confused here too. The realization that ice cores showed CO2 lagging temperature changes ought to have caused a major reavaluation of the theory. But there was too much commitment by then so the assumption that CO2 will drives temperature now just carries on even if it hadn't in the past.

In the network of feedbacks that made up the climate system, CO2 was a main driving force.

That still hasn't been shown.