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Politics : President Barack Obama -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: TimF who wrote (54965)	5/28/2009 4:24:15 PM
From: koan	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 149317

Listen Tim, that post is total bullshit. On this thread we try to post honest logical facts. You are treating the truth and logic with great disrespect when you post tripe like that.. The first thing you need to do is grow up! The folks on this thread are decent serious thinkers and I'll bet you could contribute a lot and learn a lot if you gave it a try. But posting crap like that is just a terrible wast of time for everyone. You stay on that path of thinking and it leads nowhere. It makes you sound like you are 10. >> The right wing doesn't even understand that gays are born that way and as such the CONSTITUION requires they be treated equally under the law. Technically they are treated equally under the law now. A gay man or a straight man can marry a gay or straight woman. A gay woman or a straight woman can marry a gay or straight man. There is no constitutional requirement to change that. The argument is more one of fairness which is largely subjective, but arguably equal treatment under the law can be unfair. (The classic example is a law that forbids the rich and the poor from begging, both face the same restriction, but the rich can still do what they want or need to do, the poor perhaps not.) A side note - I don't really consider the issue to be "gay/same sex marriage". Its "state recognition of and benefits to gay/same sex marriages". Two people of the same sex can have a ceremony, consider themselves to be spouses, expect others to consider the same, live together, have a sexual and romantic relationship etc. If the state tried to forbid that it would be a major abuse, and I would be totally against the politicians pushing those restrictions. On the recognition issue, I've shifted from being against it, to being pretty neutral, only not wanting the courts to invent or misapply some constitutional principle to settle the issue by judicial fiat. If the people and their elected representatives want to recognize and provide benefits to such relationships I won't oppose it.<<

To: TimF who wrote (54965)	5/28/2009 6:55:18 PM
From: Sully-	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 149317

Well said Tim. I was going to weigh in on that question too. However, after seeing the responses you, Tenchusatsu & less have received on the subject, I see it would be pointless. The opposing POV's are firmly entrenched. I'm fairly sure that koan & those who think like him would look at the list below & think that most, if not all of the issues they comprise are true. Since my POV is close to the precise opposite [based on overwhelming evidence], all it will lead to is folks shouting past each other. So, why bother? * stolen election * selected President * tax cuts for the rich * Bush knew in advance about 9/11 & did nothing * Saddam was contained - sanctions were working * rush to war * unilateral - go it alone canards * "global warming" will continue unabated into the future unless we dramatically reduce greenhouse gases now * Bush skeptical of "global warming" & won't sign on to Koyoto accords * tax cuts will reduce revenues & increase the deficit * Iraq war planned by Bush Admin before 9/11 * Bush masterminded 9/11 conspiracy * Iraq = war for Oil * Bush is an idiot [see previous 5 items] * Patriot Act memes * losing our freedoms * speech being stifled * an invasion of Afghanistan to overthrow the Taliban & defeat Al-Qaida will fail * illegal war * Bush lied us into war * the imminent threat canard * civilians intentionally targeted/massive civilian casualties canards * if we go to War in Iraq, there will be a dramatic increase in terrorist attacks globally * the Wilson/Plame/yellowcake canards * quagmire * bogged down * Bush's justification for war was ALL about "stockpiles" of WMD's & nothing else * Saddam had no ties/connections to Al Qaeda * there were no terrorists in Iraq prior to Saddam's removal * the Bush Admin falsely linked Saddam to 9/11 as part of the justification to go to war * Bush was AWOL * Bush received "special" treatment based upon Dan Rather's forged documents * Bush's crushing of dissent & freedoms * exit strategy memes * Mission Accomplished canard * journalists intentionally targeted by our troops * Bush & Co pressured the intelligence agencies to give them the data that agreed with what they wanted and to cherry pick, change, or ignore, the data they did not like. * Bush family had a cozy relationship with the bin Laden family, through the Carlyle Group * Halliburton memes * Bush was in bed with the Taliban to build a gas pipeline across Afghanistan, plus other vested interests * Bush is an idiot [see previous 4 items] * worst economy since Hoover [starting in 2003] * jobless recovery * Bush Admin official called (insert name) unpatriotic * Joe Willson proved Saddam did NOT try to buy uranium from Niger * Valerie Plame did NOT recommend her husband Joe Wilson for the mission to Niger * Bush Admin intentionally & illegally exposed an undercover CIA agent Valerie Plame * anyone who questions Bush is a traitor &/or unpatriotic * Bush proposed a ban on gay marriage * Bush = fascist * Bush = Nazi * Bush was a puppet of Cheney * Cheney was in the pocket of Halliburton * Bush was in the pocket of Big Oil * Big Oil was behind the huge spike in oil prices * Bush is an idiot [see previous 4 items] * Supreme Court nominees out of the mainstream * Bush will have to bring back the draft * culture of corruption * US committed atrocities with the tacit approval reaching the highest levels of the Bush Admin * Guantanamo Bay = American Gulag * US Soldiers compared to Nazi's, Stallin & Pol Pot * various torture & abuse memes (Abu Ghraib & Guantanamo Bay, etc.) * ACORN is a non-partisan group * Bush violates the Constitution * illegal, domestic spying, * Iraq, civil war memes * Presidential Purge * 15 British soldiers kidnapped by Iran = Bush's Gulf of Tonkin * "global warming", now called "climate change" [because global temperatures have not gone up in over a decade] is settled science * global warming, 'er.... I mean "climate change" is mainly due to pollutants created by man * under Bush our air, water & land is more polluted now than in the 1990's * Bush administration "gutted" the Clean Air Act & endangered the environmental progress of the last 40 years to benefit of Big Business * Dem's in Congress calling Bush's surge a failure before the troops were deployed to Iraq * the Bush administration will suspend the Constitution & not relinquish control of the gov't in 2008 * Bush is an idiot [see previous 4 items] * Bush Admin directly responsible for the banking crisis * Bush Admin directly responsible for the collapse of Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac * Bush Admin economic policies directly responsible for the current "depression" * Bush Admin approved illegal torture practices * the CIA told the truth when some members illegally leaked info meant to harm Bush, but the CIA lied & regularly misled Dem's in Congress about Bush's "torture" practices * etc., etc., etc.