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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Cogito who wrote (112130)5/28/2009 9:04:58 PM
From: Katelew  Respond to of 541600
 
Maybe I didn't make myself clear in the beginning. I don't particularly have a problem with the publishing of the names of the donors. Those who make large contributions to campaigns are part of the public record and often identified in the press. I was a little surprised to find that even donors of small contributions, like those who gave to support Prop 8, could be made available. For some reason, I thought the size of the contribution mattered.

At any rate, I thought I had indicated that what angered me was the maps that clearly identified people by name AND where they lived. If you didn't click on the link, here it is again. There are street maps showing exactly how to get to the homes of Prop 8 supporters in both CA and Utah.

eightmaps.com

IMO, a website full of names of donors is tacky. A map to their homes, however, is a very threatening action....an invitation to retribution. If not, then why the heck did the gay community publish the map in the first place? If you just want to try and embarress or shame people, a list of names is sufficient.

Many of the people on these maps did have garbage thrown in their yards, their houses and cars egged, their driveways spray painted, and so on. A friend of mine who lives in Redlands made a pretty sizable contribution. For a couple of weeks, two people came to his house every night around 10 and just sat in their dark car at the end of his driveway for an hour or more. He has five children, the youngest being 4 yr. old twins, and the whole thing was intimidating and unsettling. He didn't sleep well until he heard the car drive off.

I'm not totally surprised, but confess that I would have thought or guessed that some negative outcry from the liberal community would happen. I know that if the vote had gone the other way and the Christian community got mad and put up maps on the web of everyone who contributed to defeat Prop 8, we'd still be reading editorial rants about it. So I kind of expected there would be some kind of outcry from the left since the left prides itself on being fairminded and righters of wrongs. Not a big voice, but a few voices in the media that would rise above the occasion and identify something as being wrong regardless of the context. I know that liberals like to think of themselves that way.

given the history of the official sanction of polygamy in the Church, they don't have the standing to use it.

They would argue that they have Biblical standing for both issues. Polygamy was sanctioned and practiced among the Jewish and early Christian communities. The attaining of multiple wives is presented in the Bible as a divine reward to those who work hard and remain righteous. Homosexuality is Biblically condemned. On both issues the Biblical text is the basis, so thus it does become a religious imperative. Without the religious imperative, Christians would likely be unconcerned about gay marriage I would think unless you think we just like to pick on people, lol.

What most people don't know is that polygamy was widely practiced in the west at the time that Mormons were moving west and settling in the mountain states. Estimates are that close to 15% of pioneers formed polygamous relationship when men were killed off by accidents or Indians and women and children were left to fend for themselves. The more people to manage a homestead, raise cattle, and farm the land the better. So polygamous relationships and even small colonies were formed throughout the west that had no basis in religion. The extra women became somebody's sister or cousin, etc.

The federal govt., as each western state was approved for statehood, demanded that state officials crack down on the practice. Utah took its time but eventually the Church (which controled the state) decided statehood was best and ordered the church membership to stop the practice. Most Mormons at the time were not in polygamous arrangement by choice, so they weren't impacted. But many of the polygamous families at that time just left the church and moved up into the mountains or down to Mexico and continued living as they pleased.

At any rate, the argument is more that marriage is a union between men and women. It became a union between one man and one woman only when the USA established laws prohibiting the practice of polygamy. I don't know the history of why the law was passed. The laws against bigamy were, I believe, based on fraud because neither wife knew of the other. Today there really is no legal basis for the laws regarding polygamy because all it is is a bunch of people cohabiting without valid marriage licenses. If polygamists can be prosecuted, then so should two people living together outside of marriage.
Or at least, this is the argument and there are those who think polygamy laws would fail a constitutional test if someone brought the right case forward.



To: Cogito who wrote (112130)5/29/2009 12:59:27 AM
From: Glenn Petersen  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 541600
 
As you said, these sites got very little coverage in the Press . . .It's also worth considering that if these sites were publicized widely, that might put the people whose names appear on them in jeopardy.

Allen,

Actually, the websites did get a fair amount of coverage in the mainstream press. If there is another referendum on Proposition 8 in 2010, I suspect that we will see a significant decrease in the number of people donating money in support of the proposition, which will encourage other interest groups to mine donor lists for the purpose of organizing harassment campaigns against their opponents. In the future, contributing to political campaigns may become a hazardous activity.

While it does not specifically mention any of the sites by name, the following NYT article was fairly typical of the coverage:

Marriage Ban Donors Feel Exposed by List

By JESSE McKINLEY
New York Times
Published: January 18, 2009



Arrows on an online map point to the addresses of Proposition 8 supporters in the San Francisco area and across the country.
__________

SAN FRANCISCO — In many ways it is a typical map, showing states, highways, cities and streets.

But also dotting the online display are thousands of red arrows, marking spots from Bryn Mawr, Pa., to Jamacha, Calif., identifying the addresses of donors who supported Proposition 8, which outlawed same-sex marriage in California.

It is exactly those arrows that concern supporters of the measure, who say they have been regularly harassed since the election — with threatening e-mail messages and sometimes boycotts of their businesses.

“Some gay activists have organized Web sites to actively encourage people to go after supporters of Proposition 8,” said Frank Schubert, the campaign manager for Protect Marriage, the leading group behind the proposition. “And giving these people a map to your home or office leaves supporters of Proposition 8 feeling especially vulnerable. Really, it is chilling.”

So chilling, apparently, that supporters have filed suit in Federal District Court in Sacramento seeking a preliminary injunction of a state election law that requires donors of $100 or more to disclose their names, addresses, occupations and other personal information. In particular, the suit seeks to stop the final filing for the 2008 election, which is due Jan. 31. That filing includes donations made in the closing days of the campaign, when the proposition surged to victory.

James Bopp Jr., a lawyer from Indiana who filed the lawsuit on the behalf of Protect Marriage, said the harassment of Proposition 8 supporters violated their constitutional rights of free speech and assembly.

“The cost of transparency cannot be discouragement of people’s participation in the process,” said Mr. Bopp, who has argued several prominent cases challenging campaign-finance laws in California and other states. “The highest value in the First Amendment is speech, and some amorphous idea about transparency cannot be used to subvert those rights.”

The election law in question, the Political Reform Act of 1974, was approved by California voters as Proposition 9, and gay rights advocates say there is rich irony in supporters of Proposition 8 opposing the earlier ballot measure.

“They believe in the will of the people if it’s in tune with what they believe,” said Jennifer C. Pizer, marriage project director with Lambda Legal, the gay rights legal organization, in Los Angeles.

Opponents of Proposition 8 are also suspicious of the intent of trying to prevent donors from being identified. “Do they want to hide something?” said Shannon P. Minter, legal director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights in San Francisco.

Mr. Schubert insisted that there was “no smoking gun” and that the filing would show only “modest in-kind contributions” from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Church members contributed millions to the “Yes on 8” campaign, and the California Fair Political Practices Commission is investigating accusations that the Mormon leadership neglected to report a battery of nonmonetary contributions, including phone banks, a Web site and online commercials on the behalf of Proposition 8.

The lawsuit is just one part of the continuing legal wrangling over Proposition 8, whose constitutionality is being reviewed by the State Supreme Court. The court legalized same-sex marriage in May, a decision that was overturned by Proposition 8.

The court is expected to hear arguments on the proposition as soon as March, and will probably also decide the fate of some 18,000 same-sex marriages that were performed in the state.

Several prominent groups filed or signed on to briefs in recent days expressing opposition to Proposition 8, including civil rights and women’s rights organizations, labor and religious groups, and Google, which created the mapping technology.

In his suit, which is also being argued by the Alliance Defense Fund, a conservative legal group, Mr. Bopp alleges a wide range of acts against supporters, including “death threats, acts of domestic terrorism, physical violence, threats of physical violence, vandalism of personal property, harassing phone calls, harassing e-mails, blacklisting and boycotts.”

In one instance, a supporter found a flier in his neighborhood calling him a bigot and listing his employer. In another, white powder was sent to a Mormon temple and a facility run by the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic group, which contributed more than $1 million in support of Proposition 8. Other supporters, including the director of the Los Angeles Film Festival, Richard Raddon, have been forced to resign because of their backing of the measure, while some businesses have been boycotted because of Proposition 8.


Mr. Bopp also said that the level set under California’s campaign law for public disclosure, anything above $100, was too low.

“There certainly would be an amount that would influence more than a few voters,” he said. “But it’s way above $100.”

Opponents of Proposition 8 have condemned any attacks on supporters, but noted that those claiming harassment are already protected by laws. “Violence and vandalism are illegal, and those laws should be enforced,” Ms. Pizer said. “And sadly people on both sides of this issue have experienced some of that.”

Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

New York Times story link