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Gold/Mining/Energy : Big Dog's Boom Boom Room -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: ChanceIs who wrote (121205)	5/30/2009 5:30:13 AM
From: axial	1 Recommendation Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 206085

ChanceIs, in a large transit system I've been fortunate to work with conventionally-fueled vehicles as well as CNG and hydrogen, and am familiar with use of various fuels in private and fleet usage. In a fleet environment, one important factor is refueling. If you must fuel 300 vehicles every day, safety and speed become important. Without going into detail, anyone who has worked with diesel knows that it's difficult to ignite. When inevitable minor spills occur, they're unlikely to be a problem. However, NG, CNG and hydrogen are different - fueling takes longer, and is more complex. What's more, all maintenance facilities (garages, fueling stations) must be properly equipped: leaks and gas accumulations are potentially explosive. As one of the linked articles notes, seals can become problematical, especially in older units. This relates to maintenance costs, and the payback on dual-fuel or single-fuel installation. Typically, unconventionally-fueled engines have higher initial and upkeep cost; that must be factored in with fuel cost to determine whether the alternative makes economic sense. In the 60's, 70's and 80's, NG costs were low and fairly predictable. In the last ~20 years, less so. This is another factor in payback calculations. --- Of all the fuels listed above, diesel releases the most energy per unit. This has obvious benefits in terms of engine power, torque, range - and storage: that is, the size and number of tanks needed. --- Each of the fuels burns differently. Of them all, hydrogen burns in the least obvious way: in certain conditions a burning hydrogen jet is virtually invisible, especially in daylight. --- The following story concerns a Praxair truck, delivering hydrogen to Ballard in Burnaby, BC. Without wishing to overstate the case, it's fair to say that in the area near the burning truck, there were some concerns. "He is referring to an incident on August 6 at Ballard's manufacturing plant, when a H2 leak in the tank aboard the Praxair delivery truck caught fire. A manual shut off valve was used to extinguish the leak. There was no damage to any of Ballard's facilities or equipment, though the Praxair truck driver did suffer minor burns to his hands and face. Rosenberg reports that the truck remained operable, and returned to Praxair for inspection. The H2 neither exploded, nor did the entire delivery package burn. In fact, Rosenberg tells Fuel Cell Today that "we got a call from Praxair asking if we wanted the remaining H2 in the truck." In this case, Ballard's emergency response personnel reacted as trained, the safety systems operated as designed, and local fire crews were able to manage the H2 fuel safely and effectively. "If the fuel had been gasoline or propane, the minor injury to the driver and overall damage from this fire would have been much more severe," Rosenberg believes." sceneoftheaccident.org The quote neglects to mention that firefighters spent the night playing cooling water on the burning hydrogen leak. However in fairness it should be noted that the fire was no worse, and no more dangerous than it would have been with other gaseous fuels. --- This link deals with some aspects of NG/CNG use in private vehicles: canadiandriver.com Regards, Jim

To: ChanceIs who wrote (121205)	5/31/2009 9:42:54 PM
From: Sweet Ol	Respond to of 206085

Re: CNG fueled vehicles. Here in Tulsa we have a number of fleets that use CNG. You used to see lots of buses with a "CNG" sign on them, but I have not seen one for a long time. Some of the delivery trucks use it. Our postman's vehicle has a CNG sign on it and one day I asked him about it and he said they had disabled it because they just had too much trouble with them. Also, the tank was quite large. I don't think it would work very well for most cars. BWDIK. T-bone Pickens is pushing it pretty hard. Best to all, JRH