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Politics : President Barack Obama -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: koan who wrote (55506)	6/7/2009 10:49:47 AM
From: Wharf Rat	Respond to of 149317

When the Going Gets Weird, The Weird Turn Pro Hunter S Thompson It's Rat's Whirled now, kiddies.

To: koan who wrote (55506)	6/7/2009 12:51:39 PM
From: alanrs	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 149317

The world didn't start with George Bush, senior or junior. The world didn't even start with the British empire. I've heard it started with the big bang, although even that is subject to revision. The way I understood the gist of Mr. Clocks question, it was why is our current president maintaining the same policies as the last administration, and in some cases intensifying them (I was surprised when he announced more troops to Afghanistan, for instance), when he specifically campaigned on not doing that exact same thing, to the extent he was specific in this area. My understanding of your answer is that it is complicated and that Bush made him do it. (I always love 'the devil made me do it' arguments. Wish I could have used it in court a few times, but alas, most judges frown on white guys going that route. Even empathetic ones). In response, I believe the question became why it wasn't similarly complicated during the last administration, and how is it that "Clinton made me do it" (or more broadly, the big bang made me do it, since following a cause an effect chain back to first causes must lead there) is not a valid explanation for the previous administrations actions. Again, not a good defense in most courts of law, although it does have some philosophical merit. In the end, while I hate to presume to speak for someone else and would hope he (thanks for clarifying that, and good to meet you) would correct me if I'm wrong, I believe he was asking why you apply 'the buck stops here' to the last administration and 'the buck stops over there' to the current one. ARS

To: koan who wrote (55506)	6/7/2009 12:59:26 PM
From: Broken_Clock	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 149317

koan I don't "argue". I debate by presenting facts which you are not able to dispute. Many on the far right and far left engage is this type of tactic, which is basically the arguing which you accuse me of. ironic, no? Examples from your post(and previous). You have stated that Obama's hands are essentially tied because the Republicans. yet: "What is Obama to do? Bush started a war of choice with Iraq" How about withdraw the troops like he promised? No instead he is enlarging torture camps like Bagram, insuring sectarian strife by empowering one sect over the other(Maliki). As a historical note, the Democrats were 100% behind the Iraq war and that hasn't hardly changed at all. If you had taken the time to read the Nation article you would have realized Bush didn't start the death squads. He moved them to Iraq. The US has been operating death squads for at least 150 years, beginning with the Indians in our own backyard, the Phoenix program in VM, all throughout South and central America. Yes, both Dem and Rep presidents have endorsed these tactic and continue to do so. That is the 'big picture' you cannot grasp. Both parties are sold out to big business and condone torture and genocide to make a buck for their patrons.