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Politics : Just the Facts, Ma'am: A Compendium of Liberal Fiction -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Sully- who wrote (73549)	8/26/2009 7:51:13 AM
From: Sully-	1 Recommendation Respond to of 90947

Re: Will There Be Outrage? By Jonah Goldberg The Corner Some feedback from readers to my earlier post. Jonah, <<< A point you seem to miss, in your analysis of the Hollywood fictional portrayal of "good" guys torturing bad guys to get information, is that the audience knows the bad guy to be a bad guy. There is no question of a misidentification. With the detainees that have been tortured in U.S. custody, there is no such assurance. Some percentage of them are certainly innocent, or if guilty, they are guilty of little more than being on some rival's s**t list. However much you may rationalize that the truly guilty "have it coming to them," so to speak, and that this ain't beanbag, does it not shock your conscience to think of the truly innocent being so callously and indiscriminately thrown to the same fate? Is there no justice in your heart? Thanks, >>> Putting aside the sanctimony and righteousness at the end, I think he makes a good point in the abstract. I have no sympathy for torture or harsh interrogation tactics "on spec." I also reject entirely the use of such tactics as punishment or having anything whatsoever to do with the criminal justice system. Forced confessions should never be used as evidence against someone. Such things do shock my conscience, thank you very much. But intelligence gathering isn't law enforcement, as many have noted around here over the years. Meanwhile, I'm willing to concede to the reader that it shocks my conscience to use these tactics on innocent people or as punishment. I wonder in turn, does Khalid Sheikh Muhammed's treatment shock his consicence? Because frankly, it doesn't shock mine all that much. Is KSM's status as a bad guy really in doubt? Was the information he gave -- he opened up his rolodex, as they say -- irrelevant to the discussion or the sort of stuff an innocent person would know? One can argue as a matter of principle that the interrogators shouldn't have waterboarded the guy if you believe waterboarding should never, ever, be used. But that's a very different argument than the fistful of red herrings the reader throws up here. Then there's this, from another reader: <<<Mr. Goldberg, First let me say that I think most of your writing is brilliant, and that I agree with every jot and tittle in your most recent post to the "Corner" about the IG report. I would however make this point... doesn't this say something negative about our culture? I am an avowed right-leaning Libertarian. <snip> However, on torture and violence in today's war on terror... I am evolving. I have been apathetic to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, besides feeling passionately thankful to our soldiers and passionately sorry for their families. I was not for or against either conflict...and still find it hard to argue about. But on torture I can say that my personal belief is that all life is sacred and that my conservative leanings teach me that no one person is less valuable than any other. So when Jack Bauer has to kill one to save ten, though my heart may understand... my brain screams "NO!". Isn't the whole idea of American values (and the reason I am against all welfare schemes) that each individual is as important as the next? It is also why I think that as Americans we should value ALL human life above all else... including those in countries that do not have our values. I guess I just think it is a sad commentary on the human condition that there are moments when we "cheer" violence enacted on others...evem when it's the bad guy. An avid fan! >>> Me: I appreciate the email and the compliments. I think there's a lot going on in here though it's not all responsive to my point which I tried to keep pretty narrow. I think revulsion to all violence is honorable even if I don't always share it. But I also think that such revulsion can push people to positions that produce the likelihood of greater violence. Unilateral disarmament or appeasement in the face of evil may be noble in its intentions but it often leads to even greater evils. Here's one way to look at it that my illuminate my position for both readers. I favor the death penalty when it is warranted, just and arrived at through due process of law. I do not find this belief inconsistent with my views on individualism or anything of the sort. I could be wrong, but I've yet to be persuaded. But I also believe that the death penalty when not warranted or just or arrived at legally is one of the most horrific crimes imaginable (far worse than torture, by the way). In short, I believe in making distinctions based upon the facts and circumstances as best I can. If there's a better way to do it, let me know. Update: And for a completely different perspective. From a reader: <<< Jonah, Thank goodness neither of your previous e-mailers on this subject have anything to do with defending this nation. Unless I am completely mistaken all of the high pressure tactics like waterboarding and mock executions were done on KSM or other top bad guys. Jonny Jihad PFC didn't get this treatment. Do people forget that KSM literally sawed an innocent mans head off with a knife and published the video. I don't mean literally as an exaggeration, he personally sawed a living man's head off as he shrieked in pain. For that guy, I'd be willing to order the Jack Bauer vs. KSM In An Interrogation Room pay-per-view on cable. If that makes me have a dark heart, then so be it. Update II: And there's this from my Military Guy: <<<I claim that title from years ago, but that's not why I'm writing. I strongly suggest your evolving fan not run around any military installations telling everybody just how "passionately sorry for their families" he is. We just might kick his pompous ass. Cheers, Yer Military Guy, a third generation military family member who doesn't need anyone feeling sorry for him or his family, thank you very much. >>> corner.nationalreview.com