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Politics : Evolution -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Brumar89 who wrote (3028)9/13/2009 9:12:09 PM
From: LLCF  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
<The problem is anything which isn't doctrinaire materialism is called creationism.>

That's not true at all, the term ' material reductionism' or materialist it quite a popular term... there are plenty of scientist and other folks who don't believe in that version... they just don't know what else to think.

In FACT... it seems to me ID folks will just have to distance themselves from the other.

DAK



To: Brumar89 who wrote (3028)9/14/2009 12:59:51 AM
From: LLCF1 Recommendation  Respond to of 69300
 
This reminds me of "irreducible complexity":

<<According to Primas, on whose statements the following is mainly based 29,30,32-36, the atomistic-molecular view of matter and the reductionist-mechanist philosophy have no more any scientific foundation, according to the actual understanding of quantum theory. The description of reality by isolated, context-independent, elementary systems such as quarks, electrons, atoms, or molecules is only permissible under certain specific experimental conditions, and these entities cannot in any way be considered as „fundamental building stones“ of reality. Besides the molecular one, there are other, fundamentally different descriptions, complementary to the molecular one, which are quantum-theoretically equivalent and equally well founded. Quantum theory is much richer in possiblities than is admitted in the worldview of molecular biology.
In Primas‘ view, the feature of quantum theory that is most significant for biology is its intrinsic fundamental holism. For quantum mechanics, the scientific theory most widely recognized as fundamental and best confirmed by experiment, material reality forms and unbroken whole that has no parts. These holistic properties of reality are mathematically precisely defined by the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen (EPR) correlations which are experimentally well defined. Primas postulates that, by virtue of this, quantum mechanics constitutes the first and up to now only logically consistent, universally valid, mathematically formulated holistic theory14. In quantum mechanics, it is never possible to describe the whole by the description of parts and their interrelations.
With this view of quantum mechanics Primas follows Bohr and the school of Heisenberg 37, 38, while quark physics as founded by M.Gell-Mann continues to cultivate democritean atomism with their clinging to the concept of elementary particles39. Similar holistic views of quantum theory are the „bootstrap theory“ of G.Chew 40, D.Bohm’s „Causal Quantum Theory“ or „Holographic Theory of Reality“ 41, 42, and others advocated by H.Stapp43, A.Goswami 44-46, Kafatos & Nadeau47, Friedman48, D.Peat, F.Capra, H.Atmanspacher49, and many others. This holistic view of quantum theory, although the phenomena on which it is based are not yet completely understood theoretically, cannot be rejected anymore because the strange EPR quantum correlations of non-interacting and spatially separated systems have been amply demonstrated in many experiments50-54. Therefore the world-view of classical physics, atomism and mechanistic reductionism definitely cannot anymore be the basis of our worldview, and of biophysics. Quantum mechanics has established the primacy of the unseparable whole.>>

google.com

<<Another important epistemological consequence of quantum mechanics, complementarity, is also connected to its holism. As Primas writes, there is no single description, such as the molecular-reductionistic one, which can alone represent the whole reality of the subject of a scientific investigation, or is better or „truer“ than any other. Nature is extremely diverse and stratified; each description comprehends only a minute partial aspect of its unfathomable multiplicity. Any scientific description of a natural phenomenon is only possible if we renounce the description of its complementary aspects. Quantum theory can only be applied if we abstract from certain aspects and thereby break the holistic symmetry. However, the kind of abstraction we use is not prescribed by the first principles of the theory, such that quantum mechanics allows, and even requires, many different, but equivalent, complementary descriptions of nature. As an important postulate for future science, Primas therefore emphasizes that we will have to learn to work simultaneously with several complementary descriptions of nature29 .
In this perspective, the molecular view is legitimate and important and should not be abandoned; molecular biologists can be rightly proud of their successes. It should be cultivated, but not at the expense of other viewpoints. It is its extreme one-eyedness that must be criticised. However, as Primas points out, „biology is more than molecular biology“. He postulates that science must now redirect ist attention to the wholeness of nature, and therefore will have to ask radically new questions. It has to develop a concept of reality which does not exclude any part of it. Those properties which belong to organisms only as wholes must remain within the scope of science. Therefore, it will be necessary to consider the phenomena as well from „bottom-up“, as in mechanistic understanding, as from „top-down“, as in vitalistic and holistic understanding. According to Primas, the notion that the latter is not legitimate or secondary is a prejudice that must be overcome. From the viewpoint of the quantum-theoretical worldview, both are completely equivalent, but lead to fundamentally different research agendas and insights. Even the criteria according to which the scientist decides what is scientifically defendable and interesting, are completely different from these two viewpoints. Also, according to quantum theory functional and teleological explanations are completely legitimate and equivalent to causal ones; even the primacy of causality has no foundation in the first principles of physics. Primas points out that it is not possible to distinguish between causal and final processes by purely mechanical means and that such a distiction only makes sense for irreversible processes. As to the existence of the hypothetical vitalistic forces, modern physics is well able to integrate new forces into its system.
Thus, matter has become „dematerialized“ by modern quantum theory, and this property of „thinglessness“ in the quantum worldview is closely connected to the property of „interconnectedness“. The emphasis is no longer on isolated objects, but on relations, exchanges, interdepences, on processes, fields, and wholes. Quantum theory is a nonlocal theory43. It is important to see that we cannot retain the classical world of objects and only add the interconnectedness as a supplementary property of these objects.>>

<<I postulate that the new biophysics needs to extend its interdisciplinarity even beyond natural science. Consciousness cannot be excluded anymore from biophysics, although the difficulties of such an extension should not be underestimated. There is now enough evidence showing that consciousness is a causal factor in biology and not just an inconsequential epiphenomenon. >>

DAK