To: average joe who wrote (56050 ) 10/8/2009 2:59:17 AM From: Maurice Winn 2 Recommendations Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 217801 Utilitarianism. It's all very interesting. I noticed a little comment TJ made some posts ago about appreciating the efforts of people gone by when one draws water from a well. He made comment long ago about his father's [my words] attitude to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Being self actualizing in a simplistic self-indulgent sense is all very well, but working for free to do things for the greater good is even more enjoyable. I forget the exact idea but that's how I took it. It was along the lines of being satisfied oneself, what to do next? It's fun to play golf to more highly tune one's self determination but there is also pleasure to be had in digging and building a well, knowing that passersby will drink from it and some of the more sentient will pause and perhaps even notice a particular curve in a stone made by a mind gone by and feel a sense of appreciation. Not really: <“The greatest good for the greatest number” is one of the most vicious slogans ever foisted on humanity. > It's what I aim for. When it becomes the vicious slogan you mean is when it's hijacked by politician power seekers to inflict force against some to provide benefits to "the greatest number" the boss being of course right at the centre of that greatest number and the greatest of that greatest number. We can do all sorts of thought experiments and we would indeed opt for the greatest good for the greatest number, with some quality control, every time. Experiment 1. My family and I are in a boat. It needs to weigh 70 kg less for it to float and not get the little waves coming up due to a breeze lapping over the sides, sinking it and all in it. I'm the biggest and toughest [with my wife and children still at a youngish age]. I take stock of my options. I can toss over 3 small children, or a wife and one small child or 2 middle sized children, or a large child and a small child. Then I have an idea. I could climb over the side and die of hypothermia and drowning. Experiment 2. An incoming bolide can be deflected, saving Earth from certain total destruction, but one person is needed to be landed on the cosmic cannonball to steer it for a few years off course using the special deflection machine which requires on-site management to avoid spinning of the bolide and loss of control [never mind the details]. I reckon my health would hold up and could do it and apparently better than other volunteers. Is it go for launch? Experiment 3. I can invent a simple thing useful for 4 people or a really good thing which a billion people could consider as good as relativity versus old style mechanics. Which should I invent. I'd choose the second - the greatest good for the greatest number. In the fine print of that essay by John Stuart Mill: <The object of this Essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penalties, or the moral coercion of public opinion. That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him must be calculated to produce evil to some one else. The only part of the conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign. > Mqurice