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Politics : President Barack Obama -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: ChinuSFO who wrote (66602)12/13/2009 11:49:16 AM
From: Mac Con Ulaidh  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 149317
 
That is not quite accurate historically, at least in regards to Kabul. But it is creating quite the meme of a magical people who whip empires.

and what is 'winning' that we speak about? there is part of this that is about India and Pakistan. what is better for the average Afghan? the roads and schools and buildings that India is doing, the training they are giving people in govt? or the Pakistani support of the Afghan Taliban to rebuff Indian influence while doing nothing for the country?



To: ChinuSFO who wrote (66602)12/13/2009 1:58:18 PM
From: Mac Con Ulaidh  Respond to of 149317
 
Another thing on Afghanistan - we seem to mostly talk about it terms of ties to Pakistan, yet do not take into account, or even have an awareness of, historical and cultural ties to India.

and why can we not think of Afghanistan as a place where states might be able to work together under a 'central' govt.? reading about the new state that India is proposing has been an eye opener for me and clearly I need a much better map of it to understand the different areas and reams to read on the history of each. yet somehow they are mostly making it work, not that there isn't work to do to bring each area to a higher level.

Russia and India just signed onto a new deal in regards to nuclear energy (peaceful).

Who will have influence? the fundie Saudis and their Pakistani breathen? or China? or India with its multi-cultural and multi-religious realm and democracy? and when I think of the fundie Saudis spreading their 'stuff', I think of the fundie Christianists spreading 'kill the gay' bill ideas to Africa.



To: ChinuSFO who wrote (66602)12/13/2009 2:25:07 PM
From: stockman_scott  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 149317
 
<<...What Obama should have said: All the surge is accomplishing is putting more troops into harm's way, and Iraq is not one iota closer to being politically stable from it. In essence the surge is like trying to keep a ship from sinking by putting more people on it...>>

motherjones.com



To: ChinuSFO who wrote (66602)12/13/2009 2:33:47 PM
From: Mac Con Ulaidh  Respond to of 149317
 
In the 14th century, Kabul rose again as a trading center under the kingdom of Timur (Tamerlane), who married the sister of Kabul's ruler at the time. But as Timurid power waned, the city was captured in 1504 by Babur and made into his headquarters or capital. Haidar, an Indian poet who visited at the time wrote "Dine and drink in Kabul: it is mountain, desert, city, river and all else."

Zahir ud-din Muhammad Babur (February 23 [O.S. February 14] 1483 — January 5 [O.S. December 26 1530] 1531) was a Muslim conqueror from Central Asia who, following a series of setbacks, finally succeeded in laying the basis for the Mughal dynasty of India. He was a direct descendant of Timur through his father, and a descendant also of Genghis Khan through his mother.[1] Babur identified his lineage as Timurid and Chaghatay-Turkic, while his origin, milieu, training, and culture were steeped in Persian culture and so he was largely responsible for the fostering of this culture by his descendants, and for the expansion of Persian cultural influence in the Indian subcontinent, with brilliant literary, artistic, and historiographical results.[2][3]

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By 1501, he was ready again to regain control of Samarkand, but was shortly thereafter defeated by his most formidable enemy, Muhammad Shaybani, khan of the Uzbeks.[24][25] Samarkand, his lifelong obsession, was lost again. Escaping with a small band of followers from Fergana, for three years Babur concentrated on building up a strong army, recruiting widely amongst the Tajiks of Badakhshan in particular. In 1504, he was able to cross the snowy Hindu Kush mountains and capture Kabul[24] from the Arghunids, who were forced to retreat to Kandahar. With this move, he gained a wealthy new kingdom and re-established his fortunes and assumed the title of Badshah. In the following year, Babur united with Husayn Bayqarah of Herat, a fellow Timurid and distant relative, against the usurper Muhammad Shaybani.[26] However, the death of Husayn Bayqarah in 1506 delayed that venture. Babur instead occupied his allies' city of Herat, spending just two months there before being forced to leave due to diminishing resources.[26] Nevertheless, he marvelled at the intellectual abundance in Herat, which he stated was "filled with learned and matched men."[27], and became acquainted with the work of the Uzbek poet Mir Ali Shir Nava'i, who encouraged the use of Chagatai as a literary language. Nava'i's profiency with the language, which he is credited with founding,[28] may have influenced Babur in his decision to use it for his memoirs, Baburnama.

A brewing rebellion finally induced him to return to Kabul from Herat. He prevailed on that occasion, but two years later a revolt among some of his leading generals drove him out of Kabul. Escaping with very few companions, Babur soon returned to the city, capturing Kabul again and regaining the allegiance of the rebels. Muhammad Shaybani was defeated and killed by Ismail I, Safavid ruler of Persia, in 1510,[29] and Babur used this opportunity to attempt to reconquer his ancestral Timurid territories. Over the following few years, Babur and Shah Ismail I would form a partnership in an attempt to take over parts of Central Asia. In return for Ismail's assistance, Babur permitted the Safavids to act as a suzerain over him and his followers.[30] Conversely, Shah Ismail reunited Babur with his sister Khanzada, who had been imprisoned by and forced to marry the recently-deceased Shaybani.[31] Ismail also provided Babur with a large wealth of luxury goods and military assistance, for which Babur reciprocated by adopting the dress and outward customs of the Shi'a Muslims.[citation needed] The Shah's Persia had become the bastion of Shia Islam, and he claimed descent from Imam Musa al-kazim, the seventh Shia Imam. Coins were to be struck in Ismail's name, and the Khutba at the Mosque was also to be read in his name. In effect, Babur was supposed to be holding Samarkand as a vassal territory for the Persian Shah, though in Kabul, coins and the Khutba would remain in Babur's name.