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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: one_less who wrote (82407)	2/17/2010 3:25:00 PM
From: Solon	1 Recommendation Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

"Have I gotten that right?" Partly right and partly wrong. We have both been referencing "ideals" since we started discussing "ideals". But the discussion was not about whether "ideals" exist. Obviously, any dictionary can give us a definition of ideal similar to Wikipedia: "An ideal is a principle or value that one actively pursues as a goal." The question, Less, is whether or not an ideal FORM exists. There is no question that people have principles of justice, honesty, and so forth which they strive towards or at least acknowledge relative to time, place, and culture as being worthy goals and values. But what you have suggested is something entirely different. You have been unable to clearly state what it is but it appears to be either a material or non material embodiment of the ideas of justice, honesty, etc. The idea of justice is a value which is always more than the practice just as the idea of a circle is always more than what I can actually draw on a piece of paper limited by my eyesight, my tools, my coordination, and my intelligence. An idea is an idea. An "ideal form" pretends to something else entirely and when you are able to communicate to me what that is and where it is and what sort of existence it has and how you came to know about it, then I shall be able (perhaps) to add some intelligible comment. But the only thing I have been able to learn from you about these "ideal forms" after many posts is that they are not in the imagined "ether" and that they are not limited to virtues or vices. As an example, let me go back again to a "perfect circle". There is no such thing as a perfect circle. A perfect circle is a DEFINED TERM--an IDEA. It does not exist. It is not in the ether, it is not on the moon. It is not anywhere. I can define anything as "ideal"--an ideal grasshopper, an ideal jackass...ANYTHING AT ALL. But there is no ideal form for a perfect grasshopper-not in the ether, not on the moon--NOT ANYWHERE. Because perfection itself is a defined term. It does not exist in reality. You cannot even define perfect justice because you have no idea what perfect justice would be other than the meaningless tautology that it would be "perfect" or "ideal" and (according to you)--it would come packaged in some sort of "form". Now virtue is simply right thinking and right conduct. There is no perfect way to think, there is no perfect way to act. If you can get along with the people of your own race, color, and social group and if you can avoid the authorities you will be virtuous enough...