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To: Jim McMannis who wrote (110938)	4/23/2010 1:37:06 PM
From: Steve Lokness	3 Recommendations Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 116555

Jim; You think gov/union workers should be exempt from market forces but the non-union private sector should be subject to market forces? That was the argument Lee was making - I think. I'm not sure what you mean by market forces. If you think organized labor is NOT market forces, then I disagree. If you don't want union workers - then don't hire any in the first place. I'm sympathetic to union workers not so much on the pay issue (since I think the fault there is with a management that caves in) - but rather for other issues that unions protect. The mine explosion that killed 29 people and the refinery explosion that killed 6 are good examples. For teachers unions it might be class size. These issues are what caused the unions to get started in the first place. Back to public workers - they have to be subject to market forces of some kind or you get nothing but a bunch of lazy incompetent people working in government that could never work in the private sector. Usually that means paying them what they are worth - you pay more for better talent. But here too the power lies with management; if workers suck (union or non-union) fire their ars! Down the road with them - but demonizing all workers lumping them together when most just want to do their job and go home to their family with money left over to pay their medical insurance and their kids college - is wrong.

To: Jim McMannis who wrote (110938)	4/23/2010 3:04:00 PM
From: Lee	1 Recommendation Respond to of 116555

Jim, I was saying that public workers are for the most part not subject to market forces because governments generally don’t go out of business and generally don’t suffer layoffs (although the Great Recession is causing some.) I am suggesting that lack of market forces to counter the desire to “get mine” may lead to situations of abuse. For the most part HR offices have very good comparable data regarding pay and benefits. This information could be used to help fill the market gap, but than most folks in the private sector do not have pensions and most folks who work dangerous physically demanding jobs are asked to work past age fifty-five (if they can’t no pension to fall back on but maybe disability). So yes, I was saying government workers are not subject to market forces. Lee