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Politics : Evolution -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Brumar89 who wrote (8176)7/9/2010 4:38:36 PM
From: J_F_Shepard1 Recommendation  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 69300
 
"Of course there is a God. Do you think you're the wisest person in the world? "

You're contradicting yourself.... First you unequivocally state there is a god, ie you know that to be fact. And then you challenge a person who says I don't have the facts to tell me a god exists....perhaps you could lay a few facts on us...



To: Brumar89 who wrote (8176)7/9/2010 5:58:48 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
You don’t believe in God. You don’t believe in the bible. You have never defended God or Jesus God or Holy Ghost God--NOT ONCE! You cannot defend a single word of it and it is obvious you don’t believe it. You are a phony and I despise phonies.

Defend Lot and his incest or God and the two bears or shut your ignorant bloody mouth!! :-)

Phony little servant girl...



To: Brumar89 who wrote (8176)7/10/2010 8:33:53 AM
From: Solon  Respond to of 69300
 
Another Christian saved by reason! Another eagle set free to soar!

infidels.org

Blaiklock on the Historicity of Jesus

Our daylong discussions ranged over a host of topics. One had to do with the historicity of Jesus. He had recently delivered a sermon in which he had brought the full weight of his classical scholarship to bear on an attempt to prove that Jesus had in fact lived about 2,000 years ago. Most of the congregation was incensed. Why belabor the obvious, the unquestionable presupposition of our faith? But I had been fascinated. And so I took up the question again.

By that time my own little quest for the historical Jesus had yielded a seeming inconsistency in the Gospels' accounts of the date of his birth. Matthew 2:1 said that he was born "in the days of Herod the king." And since Herod had died in 4 B.C., that meant that my old assumption of a birth at the beginning of 1 A.D. had to be wrong.

Worse was to come. For Luke 2:1-2 said that he was born "when Cyrenius [otherwise known as Quirinius] was governor of Syria." But that, so far as I could discover, was in 6 A.D. Blaiklock's proposed solution was to claim that Cyrenius had been governor once before, during the period 6-4 B.C. That seemed good enough at the time, so we moved on to other matters.

Only decades later did I discover the truth.

First, I discovered that Blaiklock's proposed reconciliation of the two Gospel accounts was spurious. Both he and I had failed to take account of Luke 2:1. For there we find that the governorship of Cyrenius during which Jesus was born was concurrent with the period during which Augustus Caesar issued a decree "that all the world should be taxed." But that was during Cyrenius's second term, i.e., during or after 6 A.D. The inconsistency with Matthew 2:1 is every bit as real as I had first thought it to be. So the Gospel accounts certainly can't be relied upon.

Second, I learned that independent historical evidence of Jesus' very existence, let alone his alleged date of birth, simply does not exist. In his book Man or Myth (1983), Blaiklock confessed that "Jesus is authenticated in no other way, outside the gospels, save by Josephus and a sentence in a Roman historian."

But he didn't do justice to the fact that most New Testament scholars regard the passages in Josephus as interpolations originating in the 4th century. Many scholars think that they came from the hand of Bishop Eusebius, who is also suspected of forging a purported letter from Jesus to someone named Abgarus. At all events, the passages were unknown to earlier Christian apologists, such as Origen, who had chided Josephus for not mentioning Jesus.

As for the Roman historian, Tacitus, it should be noted that the "one sentence" Blaiklock refers to was written in the early part of the 2nd century and that, in the view of many scholars, it amounts only to a report of what was being said by Christian missionaries at that time.

Little wonder that when, in Appendix 2 of his book, the good professor gave a list of important dates of the period, he was able to be specific about many other figures, but not about Jesus. 5 B.C., he said, was the year in which Seneca was born. But it was only the "presumed" date of the nativity. And, further betraying his uncertainty, he described 29 A.D. as the "presumed date of the crucifixion." He could confidently give dates of publication for many of the most important writings of the first century, but none for the Gospels.

So when, if at all, did the incarnation occur? The Gospels, full of inconsistencies, absurdities, factual error, and evangelizing propaganda, are historically unreliable. And secular history of the time knows nothing of such a supposedly momentous event, or of others reported in the Gospels. The fact is that Blaiklock didn't know, and neither does anyone else know for certain, when--or even if--God (or the Holy Ghost or Jesus the Christ) visited this insignificant planet of ours (all in order, supposedly, to save a few of the "elect" from his own unseemly vengeance).

Blaiklock on Evil, Free Will, and Responsibility

We spent most of the day, however, on the issues that troubled me most: the problems of moral and natural evil; the problem of hellfire and damnation; the problem of particularity (why God would announce his plan for universal salvation to only a handful of people, at only one time and place); questions about the doctrine of salvation and why God would demand the blood-sacrifice of his son in order to atone for the sins of his creatures; questions about how creatures created without flaw--Satan, Adam and Eve--could fall from grace; why, according to the doctrine of original sin, God would impute sin to all of Adam and Eve's descendants; and so on.

Questions about free will and responsibility predominated. Not only in connection with the doctrine of predestination, but in other contexts as well. It had become clear to me by then that, although there was some sense in which I did in fact sometimes act "of my own free will" and was responsible for the actions I then performed, there was also some "deeper" sense in which I was neither free nor responsible. I couldn't see why the buck should stop with me. After all, I didn't choose who I was going to be: who my parents were, for example, or what kind of soul I had (if I had one). How then could I be ultimately responsible for what I was, and therefore did? It was this deeper sense of both concepts that was threatened by predestination, of course, for--according to that doctrine--it was God who was ultimately responsible for my free acts and for my final fate.

My own ultimate responsibility for my free acts was also threatened, I thought, by other considerations having little to do with theological doctrine. World War II was raging, and it was all Hitler's fault. Or so we all believed. A curious question haunted me: "What if I had been Hitler?" Then, I thought, I would have done what Hitler had done; and it would all have been my fault. I wasn't asking merely, "What if I'd been born in the same circumstances as Hitler?" Rather it was a question about identity, personal identity in particular: "What if I were identical with Hitler?" He didn't choose his identity--who he was--any more than did I. So was he really at fault for the acts that had flowed from the person he was?

I'm not too sure to this day how to answer the question, or even whether it makes logical sense. It is even more puzzling, perhaps, than the question posed decades later by the philosopher, Thomas Nagel, who asked: "What is it like to be a bat?" But it did set me thinking about how lucky I was that I was in fact Ray Bradley, not Adolph Hitler. Was it just the luck of the draw, as it were? Translating my perplexity, and sense of good fortune, back into the theological context, I felt the force of the saying, "There, but for the grace of God, go I." Was Hitler ultimately responsible? Was anyone--other than God, of course--responsible? Blaiklock said that it was all a mystery for which God would one day reveal the answer.

Hitler's name came up again in connection with the problem of moral evil. I wanted to know why God would permit his creatures, like Hitler, to commit so many morally evil deeds? Blaiklock's answer, in keeping with that of other Christian apologists, then and now, was that God has given us the gift of free will and couldn't take it away without transforming us into zombies.

But surely, I objected, there was a third alternative. God could allow Hitler, for example, to freely choose his policies but then, by means of a timely miracle, ensure that Hitler's intentions were frustrated. Why couldn't he strike him down with a heart attack or ensure that there was a mechanical failure in the aircraft in which he was flying? Why couldn't he intervene in some such way every time anyone formed an evil intent? That wouldn't take away our free will. On the contrary, we'd soon learn not even to try to translate evil thought into evil action. And we would no more be zombies than are the millions of people around the world who are "struck down" by disease or mishap every year.

Blaiklock invoked the biblically spurious belief in free will, again, in order to answer my questions about natural evil: Why did God create a world rife with disease and disaster, fire, flood, famine, and the rest? 'Blame it on the Devil' was Blaiklock's answer. God's original creation, he claimed, was perfect, and God had very correctly surveyed it and said that it was "very good." It was the Devil, Satan, who'd messed it up. God, I was supposed to believe, had given Satan, too, the gift of free will--a gift that he had abused by spoiling God's good work, at our cost.

But that wouldn't do, I objected. Since God was supposed to be all-powerful, he could easily at any time--and preferably sooner rather than later--deprive Satan of his awesome powers, rendering impotent his evil intent. According to the Book of Revelation, God would eventually bind Satan in chains forever. So why didn't God do it now? Why hadn't he done it in the first place, the moment Satan began his evil career? Again, all was mystery.

Blaiklock did his best. But it wasn't good enough. Calling it all a deep mystery simply heightened my desire to penetrate mystery's inner workings by exposing the contradictions and rejecting indefensible doctrines. Only reason could do that. Faith merely locked the door on mystery and tried to hide the key.

At the end of a day that tested my intellectual stamina beyond anything I'd experienced before, he had a simple confession: "Ray, I can't answer your questions. All I can do is ask you to go to the Bible Training Institute Bookroom and buy the following books.... Read and pray." He wrote out a substantial check. I purchased the books, one of them being C.S. Lewis's The Problem of Pain. I read. I prayed. But the heavens were closed.

About 20 years later (in 1965 or 66, as I remember it), Professor Blaiklock and I crossed swords again, but on a more even footing. By then I had been appointed as the Professor and Head of Philosophy at the University of Auckland and was asked to engage my "Uncle Ted" in a series of 10 lunch hour debates. Our final session went on for over 2 hours in the presence of nearly 1,000 students. His eloquence was unmatchable: he was, after all, University Orator. But my arguments were unanswered. In many ways we simply talked passed each other.

The previous year, I'd had a similar series of 10 debates with Professor Val Chapman of the Botany Department, at the end of which I was told that the president of the Student Christian Movement had lost his faith and didn't get it back again until they'd worked on him for 3 weeks. That's why one of the campus chaplains recruited Professor Blaiklock in the hope that he would prove a more worthy opponent--which he did.

Other Milestones on the Way to Apostasy

But back to my teenage years. It is worth mentioning a few other milestones in my attempts to pursue truth wherever it might be found.

The year before my Titirangi talks with Blaiklock, our Fourth Form English and History teacher, Maurice Hutchings, decided that we should learn the art of debating. The topic chosen was "Creation versus Evolution." I volunteered, along with a Seventh-Day Adventist acquaintance, to take up the cudgels on behalf of creation. I began researching all the antievolutionist literature that was heaped on me once my mission was known.

The Evolution Debate

Some three weeks later, the debate occurred. That night I had to report on its outcome to my parents. They detected my reluctance to elaborate on the simple statement that we had won by a vote or two. Only under pressure did I confess that, in spite of winning, I could no longer believe that for which I had argued.

In my view, the antievolutionist literature that I'd read was full of spurious arguments against crude caricatures of what evolutionists had actually said. And I'd thought that the opposition's arguments for evolutionary theory were pretty convincing. Besides, I pointed out, there was a difference between believing in creation (that the universe owed its existence to a creator-god) and believing in creationism (that the world was created in the way depicted in Genesis, complete with species that reproduced only "according to their kind").

My parents were outraged. I was, they said, "possessed by the Devil." No assurances to the contrary had any calming effect. I finished up spending most of a frosty night shivering in a concrete shelter among the sheep in the crater of Mt. Albert. But I never did recant.

Christian Crusaders

Then a year later, in 1945, the very same teacher, Maurice Hutchings, spotted me wearing my Christian Crusader badge. He asked me if I knew much of the history of the Crusades and suggested that I might want to find out more. I did the research. And I threw away my badge.

Buddhism

The following year, when I was in the Sixth Form, I won an essay competition and selected The Life of the Buddha as my prize. The ethics of Siddhartha Gautama Buddha, I discovered, had anticipated most of the much-vaunted Sermon on the Mount, by about 6 centuries. And Siddhartha himself came across as rather more wise and virtuous than Jesus. I couldn't buy into the doctrine of samara, the wheel of reincarnation. But the idea of karma, the fruits of one's actions (in this world at least), made sense. And his notion of nirvana, a state of nothingness where there are neither sensations nor ideas, and in which all personal identity is lost, seemed both more plausible and more pleasant than the Christian prospect of an eternity in Heaven, for a few, or in Hell, for most.

I did flirt with Madame Blatavsky's Theosophy--one of Buddhism's 19th-century spin-offs--for a month or so, but rapidly came to the conclusion that it was mainly mumbo-jumbo.

By the time I was 17, attending Auckland Teachers College by day while commencing a part-time degree at the university by night, I'd pretty much given up on Christianity and all other forms of revealed religion.

Deism

Yet I thought for a while that some form of deism might be defensible, deism being the belief in some sort of Supreme Being who created the world and then left it to its own devices. I tried out the standard philosophical arguments--the cosmological argument, the teleological argument, and the ontological argument--in the senior sermonette contest at a Bible Class camp in Orewa. I tied for first place with one of the students from the Baptist Theological College but was criticized for being "less evangelical" than my rival. Actually, I was surprised at having been ranked so high, for the arguments I'd propounded had seemed to me unsound despite my best attempts to give them a positive spin. That was the last time I really thought I might find a rational basis for belief in any sort of religion: theism, or even deism.

Nevertheless, I did preserve--for a while--the liberal Christian idea that the Jesus myth was worth preserving for the moral values it enshrined. But then the doctrine of hellfire got to me again, and I came to the same conclusion as Mark Twain. As he had put it, "the palm for malignity must be granted to Jesus, the inventor of hell..."

As for agnosticism, that seemed to me a refuge for the timid and spineless, for those who couldn't see, or wouldn't face up to, the implications of the fact that they were atheists, not agnostics, about Santa Claus. So, by the age of 18, I was an atheist about all gods and other creatures of imagination, myth, and superstition. First, a self-avowed "atheist"; then, a bit later, an unabashed one. No longer in fear of the Devil, I saw no need to cower before that unfashionable word.
Postscript

Given what I've told you of my story so far, you could be forgiven for supposing that my struggles to free myself from the bondage of Baptist beliefs occurred in an atmosphere of sweetness and light. How about the darker side that we normally associate with the term "fundamentalism"? Condemnation of films, dancing, immodest clothing, lipstick, alcohol, and the like? Prohibitions against work--even homework--on the Lord's Day? Blasphemy charges? Book-burnings? Beating those who dared to differ? Sad to say, I experienced all these at the hands of those who most sincerely sought to save my soul from perdition: my parents.

The book-burnings occurred when my biology teacher, Peter Ohms, lent me a textbook outlining evolutionary theory and a novel depicting St. Paul as a misogynist who occasionally sought relief in the warm flesh of a woman of the night. Both books disappeared mysteriously from my shelves. It was only when questioned that my parents revealed the fate of both. They had been thrown into a bonfire along with "other garbage." My teacher was magnanimous. But that didn't erase my shame and outrage.

The beatings, in particular, left their mark on me--not least in a broken nose inflicted after the Evolution debate, before I'd fled to the mountaintop. They had begun, when I was 10 or 11, with the kitchen confrontations with my mother over issues to do with God's foreknowledge. They continued, with increasing severity, as my apostasy became more evident and fears for my soul grew more intense. And they ended only when our closest neighbor, Balfour Joseph, intervened and threatened to call the police were they to occur again.

I shan't dwell on these ugly, but all-too-common, manifestations of fundamentalism. Instead, I'd like to finish with a little bouquet of aphorisms to carry with you as you reflect on my story:

* Today's so-called "evangelical Christians" are fundamentalists in sheep's clothing, many of them still possessing the wolf's fangs.
* Liberal Christians have traded their fundamentalist heritage for a mess of verbiage, but may be the better for it.
* Intransigent belief is not a sign of strength or virtue, but of intellectual and moral weakness.
* Faith in the sanctity of faith itself is the ultimate sacrament of those who abandon reason for unreasoning religion.
* No faith can be the ultimate arbiter between itself and other faiths: all must submit to the tribunal of reason and experience.

And finally (mimicking the sexual innuendo found in female Christian mystics like St. Teresa of Avila):

* Mystery, like a coy virgin, yearns to have her secrets revealed. But faith locks her in a chastity belt to frustrate reason's desire.



To: Brumar89 who wrote (8176)7/10/2010 9:00:02 AM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
Joyce could certainly write, eh?

HELL & BRIMSTONE

- Now let us try for a moment to realize; as far as we can, the nature of that abode of the damned which the justice of an offended God has called into existence for the eternal punishment of sinners. Hell is a strait and dark and foul smelling prison, an abode of demons and lost souls, filled with fire and smoke. The straitness of this prisonhouse is expressly designed by God to punish those who refused to be bound by His laws. In earthly prisons the poor captive has at least some liberty of movement, were it only within four walls of his cell or in the gloomy yard of his prison. Not so in hell. There, by reason of the great number of damned, the prisoners are heaped together in their awful prison, the walls of which are said to be four thousand miles thick: and the damned are so utterly bound and helpless that, as a blessed saint, saint Anselm writes in his book of similitudes, they are not even able to remove from the eye a worm that gnaws it.

- They lie in exterior darkness. For remember, the fire of hell gives forth no light. As at the command of God, the fire of the Babylonian furnace lost its heat but not its light, so at the command of God, the fire of hell, while retaining the intensity of its heat, burns eternally in darkness. It is a never ending storm of darkness, dark flames and dark smoke of burning brimstone, amid which the bodies are heaped one upon another without even a glimpse of air. Of all the plagues of which the land of the Pharaohs was smitten, one plague alone, that of darkness, was called horrific. What name, then, shall we give to the darkness of hell which is to last not for three days alone but for all eternity?

- The horror of this strait and dark prison is increased by its awful stench. All the filth of the world, all the offal and scum of the world, we are told, shall run there as to a vast reeking sewer when the terrible conflagration of the last day has purged the world. The brimstone too which burns there in such prodigious quantity fills all hell with its intolerable stench: and the bodies of the damned themselves exhale such a pestilential odour that as saint Bonaventure says, one of them alone would suffice to infect the whole world. The very air of this world, that pure element, becomes foul and un-breathable when it has been long enclosed. Consider then what must be the foulness of the air of hell. Imagine some foul and putrid corpse that has lain rotting and decomposing in the grave, a jellylike mass of liquid corruption. Imagine such a corpse prey to flames, devoured by the fire of burning brimstone and giving off dense choking fumes of nauseous loathsome decomposition. And then image this sickening stench , multiplied a million fold and a million fold again from the millions upon millions of fetid carcasses massed together in the reeking darkness, a huge and rotting human fungus. Imagine this and you will have some idea of the horror of the stench of hell.

- But this stench is not, horrible though it is, the greatest physical torment to which the damned are subjected. The torment of fire is the greatest to which the tyrant has ever subjected his fellow creatures. Place your finger for a moment in the flame of a candle and you will feel the pain of fire. But our earthly fire was created by God for the benefit of man, to maintain in him the spark of life and to help him in the useful arts whereas the fire of hell is of another quality and was created by God to torture and punish the unrepentant sinner. Our earthly fire also consumes more or less rapidly according as the object which it attacks is more or less combustible so that human ingenuity has even succeeded in inventing chemical preparations to check or frustrate its actions. But the sulfurous brimstone which burns in hell is a substance which is specially designed to burn forever with unspeakable fury. Moreover our earthly fire destroys at the same time as it burns so that the more intense it is the shorter its duration: but the fire of hell has this property that it preserves that which it burns though it rages with incredible intensity it rages for ever.

- Our earthly fire again, no matter how fierce or widespread it may be, is always of limited extent: but the lake of fire in hell is boundless, shoreless and bottomless. It is on record that the devil himself, when asked the question by a certain soldier, was obliged to confess that if a whole mountain were thrown into the burning ocean of hell it would be burned up in an instant like a piece of wax. And this terrible fire will not afflict the bodies of the damned only from without but each lost soul will be a hell unto itself, the boundless fire raging in its very vitals. O, how terrible is the lot of those wretched beings! The blood seethes and boils in the veins, the brains are boiling in the skull, the heart in the breast glowing and bursting, the bowels a redhot mass of burning pulp, the tender eyes flaming like molten balls.

- And yet what I have said as to the strength and quality and boundlessness of this fire is as nothing when compared to its intensity, an intensity which it has as being the instrument chosen by divine design for the punishment of soul and body alike. It is a fire which proceeds directly from the ire of God, working not of its own activity but as an instrument of divine vengeance. As the waters of baptism cleanse the soul with the body so do the fires of punishment torture the spirit with the flesh. Every sense of the flesh is tortured and every faculty of the soul therewith: the eyes with impenetrable utter darkness, the nose with noisome odours, the ears with yells and howls and execrations, the taste with foul matter, leprous corruption, nameless suffocating filth, the touch with redhot goads and spikes, with cruel tongues of flame. And through the several torments of senses the immortal soul is tortured eternally in its very essence amid the leagues upon leagues of glowing fires kindled in the abyss by the offended majesty of the Omnipotent God and fanned into everlasting and ever increasing fury by the breath of the anger of the Godhead.

- Consider finally that the torment of this infernal prison is increased by the company of the damned themselves. Evil company on earth is so noxious that even the plants, as if by instinct, withdraw from the company of whatsoever is deadly or hurtful to them. In hell all laws are overturned: there is no thought of family or country, of ties, of relationships. The damned howl and scream at one another, their torture and rage intensified by the presence of beings tortured and raging like themselves. All sense of humanity is forgotten. The yells of the suffering sinners fill the remotest corners of the vast abyss. The mouths of the damned are filled with blasphemies against God and of hatred for their fellow sufferers and of curses against those souls which were their accomplices in sin. In olden times it was the custom to punish the parricide, the man who had raised his murderous hand against his father, by casting him into the depth of the sea in a sack in which were placed a cock, a monkey and a serpent. The intention of those lawgivers who framed such a law, which seems cruel in our times, was to punish the criminal by the company of hateful and hurtful beasts. But what is the fury of those dumb beasts compared with the fury of execration which burst from the parched lips and aching throats of the damned in hell when they behold their companions in misery , those who aided and abetted them in sin, those whose words sowed the first seeds of evil thinking and evil living in their minds, those whose immodest suggestions led them on to sin, those whose eyes tempted and allured them from the path of virtue. They turn upon those accomplices and upbraid them and curse them. But they are helpless and hopeless: it is too late now for repentance.

- Last of all consider the frightful torment of those damned souls, tempters and tempted alike, of the company of the devils. These devils will afflict the damned in two ways, by their presence and by their reproaches. We can have no idea of how horrible these devil are. Saint Catherine of Siena once saw a devil and she has written that, rather than look again for one single instant on such a frightful monster, she would prefer to walk until the end of her life along a track of red coals. These devils, who were once beautiful angels, have become as hideous and ugly as they once were beautiful. They mock and jeer at the lost souls whom they dragged down to ruin. It is they, the foul demons, who are made in hell the voice of conscience. Why did you sin? Why did you lend an ear to the temptings of fiends? Why did you turn aside from your pious practices and good works? Why did you not shun the occasions of sin? Why did you not leave that evil companion? Why did you not give up that lewd habit, that impure habit? Why did you not listen to the counsels of your confessor? Why did you not, even after you had fallen the first or the second or the third or the fourth or the hundredth time, repent of your evil ways and turn to God who had waited for your repentance to absolve you of your sins? Now the time for repentance has gone by. Time is, time was, but time shall be no more! Time was to sin in secrecy, to indulge in that sloth and pride, to covet the unlawful, to yield to the promptings of your lower nature, to live like the beasts of the field, nay worse than the beasts of the field for they, at least, are but brutes and have not reason to guide them: time was but shall be no more. God spoke to you by so many voices but you would not hear. You would not crush out that pride and anger in your heart, you would not restore those illgotten goods, you would not obey the precepts of your holy church nor attend to your religious duties, you would not abandon those wicked companions, you would not avoid those dangerous temptations. Such is the language of those fiendish tormentors, words of taunting and of reproach, of hatred and of disgust. Of disgust, yes! For even they, the very devils, when they sinned sinned by such a sin as alone was compatible with such angelical natures, a rebellion of the intellect: and they, even they, the foul devils must turn away, revolted and disgusted, from the contemplation of those unspeakable sins by which degraded man outrages and defiles the temple of the Holy Ghost, defiles and pollutes himself.