This seems more reasoned that some of the other posts on this subject.
"That's a theological issue and I wouldn't post that. I can't say. I will say I'm negatively impressed with what Islamic historical sources say about Mohammed. I sure don't think his teachings or actions were of God."
Even if you had actually formed an opinion from a deep study of the whys and wherefores of his actions you might conclude that his hadith was not of God. But you have not done such a study, you have grabbed what you could from a hate site and published it as an informed opinion, even proof. It is niether.
" I am impressed with the fact that there is violent conflict between Muslims and other groups in so many countries - Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Australia, Somalia, Sudan, Uganda, Egypt, Nigeria, Israel, Turkey, Europe, US, Russia. "
The world is full of conflict, we have managed to move our's to the political arena, rather than the field of combat, at least for the moment at home. We are engaged in violent conflict just about everywhere else. More so than any of the countries you listed. Most of the issues you mention seem petty and barbaric self serving power struggles to us outsiders. I'm convince most of them are no more than that.
(women) "In some countries yes, in others no.
And so it would be with or without a religion to blame.
>>>and restricts the freedoms we support in an open democratic society.
In most Islamic countries, yes.
In fact most societies, Islamic or not, do not satisfy us on principle and practice. Russia would be the most comparable to us on most measures of world power and influence. I personally would not want to live in any of the so called 'Islamic Countries' which I see as oppressive regimes at best and brutally tyrannical at worst, so maybe we agree on that point.
"It may represent a threat and yes, we don't want America to be an Islamic nation ruled by sharia."
Every powerful influence can be said to present a threat about what we don't want to become. I hear the dems and repubs say that about each other quite often. I hear it about corporate America and about grass roots liberal America all the time. Perceived threats should be guarded or they can become reality. However, Polyanna told me we can always find something to be glad about. You are afraid of Muslims influencing the culture of America but you haven't considered some of the possitive influences, at least I haven't seen anyone posting about it. Muslims are prone to living a fairly traditional conservative life style. Their influence could bring about some positive changes, like less gang and drug infested drunken sex clubs, which most conservatives are all for.
"Where they differ from our values, yes."
They don't.
We don't want honor killings and we have them now, we don't want kids chanting "death to _____" fill in the blank (this happened here in Houston just before 911, kids from a Muslim school on Hillcroft showed up when Salman Rushdie visited the city and were chanting "Death to Rushdie" - chanting death to anyone isn't part of our culture.
Nor is any of that condoned by mainstream Islam.
We don't want child abuse, incest, rape, murder, pedophilia ... we don't want mass murder in schools or drive by shootings but we have that now we don't want the highest crime rate for these things in the world but we have it now, but it is not condoned by anyone. Nearly every girlfriend or spouse killing is an honor killing Brumar and there is plenty of hatred for people who don't represent the right views. We've had political assassinations and murders of all sorts because of idealism, and kids do dumb things. These examples are ludicrous if you are trying to say either Muslims or non-Muslims would.
"Jesus did. And Muslim's own history of Mohammed show he did NOT.
The comparisons between the two are miss placed at the start since 1) Mohammad was not Jesus, so what? Neither are you, neither am I. 2) Mohammad never suggested the Islamic message was to be used in opposition to Jesus. 3) One third of the Quran is in reverence to Jesus. 4) Even in modern times it would be considered heresy for a Muslim to disrespect Jesus.
Mohammad often expressed the desire for Muslim pacifism he was not God or God's relative or anything divine he was dealing with things as they came, things that he didn't prophesy. Up and until the Muslims were threatened with annihilation at the hands of their enemies he avoided violent conflict. Once that door was opened, however, the flood gates of violence were opened to Muslims in Arabia. Just the same, the intended result of all that was the unification of tribes and regions who had never had peace before. It was a planned outcome that wasn't according to Mohammad's druthers but did succeed in the creating a peaceful Arabia. Same with most of the other regions where Islam spread for centuries.
"Thats an accurate description of what Mohammed founded. I realize over the centuries most Muslims don't live lives of pillage and violence, though some do - in the Sudan for instance, in Somalia, ....."
No it's not. Compulsion is forbidden and conversion is not considered authentic if even the slightest coersion is present. Even so, people use religion for self serving and corrupt agendas. Blaming the radical idiots in modern time on Islam or Mohammad is as wrong as blaming Christian attrocities on Christanity or worse blaming God.
"As for compulsion, yes, I think in most Islamic countries people convert from Islam at risk of their lives .... and usually do so very quietly. Sounds like compulsion to me."
Me too.
"If they want to live in a society run by sharia, yes, they should go to an Islamic country.
I'm not sure what you think Sharia is but it's not 100 lashes for adultery and beheadings and such. That is only how some systems apply it and we can all agree they are corrupt. Sharia is fundamentally one of the first democratic forms of government. A Sharia council are the most qualified to judge in Islamic Jurisprudence. They are obligated to take information from the larger community and consider it before issuing fatwa (direction) much like a supreme court but without checks and balances. Countries like Iran and villages in remote Pakistan who do extreme stuff are not condoned in the Mainstream of the world. However, we are governed by constitutional law and that will not change without a war or the will of the people at a constitutional convention or something.
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"So I think that the good Muslims I know are likely in a position of ignoring/denying the bad and not confronting it."
First there is a great deal of bad in the world that is the responsibility of Muslims and/or Muslim groups. These educated decent people you know are probably very well read on Islamic teachings and are most likely not ignoring or denying anything. As you already pointed out, there is a great deal of conflict in other parts of the world, people don't get into conflict who are ignoring the oppression and brutality of tyrants and thugs. So, I would encourage you to consider further the contradiction in view... ignoring/in open conflict. They do confont it but are not likely run around being out of church loud mouths so to speak. They and millions like them are in America and other parts of the free world as one way of confronting it.
"Now in previous posts, you and others have mentioned things Christians did in the past - the inquisition, etc. The thing is I CAN look at those things and say they were wrong and were a perversion of the Christian faith ...."
Muslims condemn attrocious acts committed by Muslims and decry it as a corruption of the Islamic faith. Not always because it isn't always safe to speak up. How bold would you be in criticising Obama if it meant you would be imprisoned or never be able to return to your homeland, never to communitcate with your loved ones again. That is the case in many Islamic countries. If any Cleric in Saudi suggests Salafi Wahabism is not the only valid viewpoint, they will be imprisoned, and that is the beloved elites. In some countries, like under Saddam torture is common. Muslims do condemn injustice on a wide scale, however, where and as they are able and don't wait for hundreds of years to pass, so's to be at a safe distance. How common was it for Christian Plantation owners to condemn slavery when it was occurring? Not common, but I know all of us would have been exceptions if we were there then. ... sure.
"and importantly I don't find ANYTHING in Jesus teachings or actions to justify persecution or violence toward others.
I know you don't. I don't either, and yet we have a history where the religious authorities have been at the forefront of persecution and violence toward others. We do have rules of war that are blessed by the Christian Clergy don't we. |
