"just say I began looking into Islam in an effort to understand why there is so much violence today coming from Muslims - from the Philippines to Nigeria to Europe to the US.
It's clearly not just an Israel thing, not just an American thing, or a western thing. If it was why would there be so many atrocities in Thailand and Sudan and Nigeria and India ..... etc. It's clearly a Muslim thing."
You are partially correct. In addition to that those regions, have a history of violent conflict with or with out Islam to blame. Circumstance does matter even though you would prefer to dismiss circumstance and blame Islam juxtaposed with Christanity. I will say this much on that. If the entire would converted to Christianity, then the world, conflict, the nature of human atrocity would not change one iota. The only difference is that you would have to find a new way to demonize innocent people to rationalize your particular circumstance. Well unless you finally abandoned that type of bigoted mind set all together.
I do know the factors that contribute to a hardened radical personality. Once that is the case, the hardened radical is likely to use whatever doctrine is available to convince others extreme conduct is justifiable. Consider the conditions in these areas you've just identified and you not only have Muslim populations but you have the conditions that would create extremists in any culture. Unfortunately for us it is Muslims, and rightlfully or wrongfully, most of the world has identified us as the enemy of the oppressed and down trodden. So extremists are bound to use us as an excuse for their actions, it is part of their justification.
And what I come up with is the sira and hadiths ( which are significant because they record Mohammed's life and words in order to provide a model of how Muslims should behave) present Mohammed and the early Muslims doing, saying and teaching outrageous and violent things. (Okay, there is the koran itself and the jihad concept too. I guess they'd still be there even if we could make the siras and hadiths disappear from earth tomorrow. But I find the siras and hadiths particularly horrific.)
The problem for you, and consequently for everyone you infect, is that literature is 1400 years old and attempting to find a genuine understanding of it by grabbing quotes off a hate blog is first, impossible, and second guaranteed to cause conflict. You find the resources you visit horrific because that is the intended effect of the promoters, not because the literature in any other format would bring that response.
The idea of attempting to study the literature to get a better insight on how Muslim radicals justify their actions is recommendable but I'd suggest a more unbiased source. I know it's impossible with the approach you used recently.
"Now I understand you and no doubt most Muslims either ignore these things or explain them away."
It's your opinion based on your misinformed false presumptions. Nothing more.
"But there's a significant percentage of Muslims all over the world who take the atrocity stories, without the rationales and context arguments designed to explain the moral problem of the atrocities away, as guides to how Muslims should behave toward others.'
Extremists do what you have done, somehow that doesn't clue you into the problem you are struggling with at all. But if you truly want to get an insight into the issue you say you want to put your efforts into... this is THE KEY. "physician heal yourself."
"You can think I'm just "attacking' Islam out of loyalty to Christianity.
Absolutely, you have proven it to be true in several ways. The conditions in the world also bolster your confidence that it is the right thing to do. Blacks in Harlam had plenty of information about the conditions in the world to convince them rioting was the right thing to do to. People outside their mindset could see the problem differently.
"But note, I'm not saying anything negative about Buddha, Confucius, Zoroaster, etc because 1) as far as I know there isn't any negative info out there on them and 2) most important, I don't need to figure out why the followers of those guys are cutting peoples heads off in the 20th and 21st centuries. "
Irrelevant.
"Looking into it, I see Mohammed cut LOTS of heads off and that is presented in Muslim religious documents as being justified. Well, gee, thats pretty relevant."
I think so too. And I suspect you have gotten just enough information to be dangerous and no more, if history is any guide.
"Now you can "retaliate" by listing atrocities that Christians have done over the centuries."
I would not "retaliate" in that way and have not because it serves no good purpose and loses the topic focus. I have presented long accounts of such atrocities but not to attack Christianity or to hurt you personally. I have presented such accounts for another reason, which has missed it's target up till now and may be a lost cause. It was to get you to think about what you are doing as if it were being done to you, and if you would think that a good thing.
However there's a problem there. Let's take a particularly vile Christian - Torquemada. That he tortured people and burned them is indisputable. BUT no Christian today says what he did was right. No Christian teaches their children the Inquisition was a good thing and Torquemada is an example of how Christians ought to behave toward heretics. No Christian says there were extenuating circumstances and a context that justified what Torquemada did.
I don't really care and don't really think it is relevant. It is almost a big fat SO WHAT BRUMAR!?
The only way it is relevant is more material attempting to justify your bigotry, which is not justified. Your not fatty? Well ok skinny good for you.
The fact is, what you are doing right now is every bit of the pattern used to promote inquisition. In addition, you are identifying Christians who have been judged by Christendom to have been criminally extreme. Even though they were the Christian authority of that day.
The relevant comparison would be someone from history who has been judged to be a criminal tyrant by the Muslim population. And there are plenty. Muslims all over the world condemn historical figures who were Muslim and who terrorized regions. Muslims today go to war with each other when they perceive things that way.
Christians have attempted to judge other Christians as evil since the beginning, and we've already mentioned the persecutory results of that. The history of Christianity is rich with that theme, without time for a breath in between, and what you are attempting, in spite of your claims, is just that with respect to Mohammad. Your justification is flawed, your judements and conclusions lack genuine substantiation, and will never fly until you win your case in the eyes of the world. Any objective person can see the hidden or maybe not so hidden agenda and dismiss the silly notion. I can only suggest you consider the libraries of study that already exist specifically for that purpose and which have dug into and analyzed the issue to the Nth extreme beyond what you can imagine.
I don't see anything wrong with the idea of attempting to gain a better understanding. People have to start some place. However most people start such a thing with an open mind and recognize they are mere beginners in understanding a knowledge base where growing to mature understanding requires patience humility and hard work. Bigots are instant authorities able to criticise the multitudes of informed scholars, who know they are right and don't need no stink'n explanations. Which are you? I've just waisted paper mentioning that. Hate blogs are proof enough for you, making your trip a lost cause before you start your engine. But feel free to proceed on course as you wish.
"And the converse isn't true. As you've shown yourself, Muslims, even moderate ones, do feel compelled to defend vile actions by Mohammed and his early followers as being justified by context, the times, or whatever. "
As noted above your premise and comparison is very flawed on a number of levels.
I don't know the solution to this problem that the world has.
Obviously. You can't even define the problem the world has. You've got to many personal issues in the way.
"But I do believe its not in sticking our heads in the sand ..
That is not happening.
"...and pretending there's nothing wrong but hate expressed by meanie bigots toward poor innocent Muslims."
No pretending, there is more to the problem than ignorant bigots fanning the flame but that is definitely part of the problem.
|
