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Politics : Evolution -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: one_less who wrote (9331)10/22/2010 3:08:21 PM
From: Solon  Respond to of 69300
 
I rarely "recommend" posts in the SI manner (for what to me are completely valid reasons), but I make an exception in this instance. The evidences of "hypocrisy" and "fraud" are omnipresent in his posting record. Almost everyone (if not everyone on this thread) is aware of the insincere and calculated fraud he commits with unconscionable deliberation; But it is difficult to pin down someone who is always running and dodging...and always tipping over the apple cart in front of the righteous and civilized posse as he flees their oursuit.

His personal attacks simply demonstrate that his "discussions" are not based on reason. He HAS the TRUTH (he believes). Therefore, he CANNOT admit to facts which question that "Truth". The only other alternative for him is to attack the person.

Libelous ad hominems simply fulfill his sense of "Righteousness". He can justify any criminal act in the "service" of his superstition. In other words, we have a very sick man here: He has turned morality completely on her ear--and he has become as root rot in a field of rye.

You did wonderful in keeping it rational and specific. Some of us (after dealing with him for several years) have simply given up pursuing a completely reasoned approach. We get jaded...and we get very very weary.

Can people be that "fraudulent" and dishonest without actually being psychotic?? That, I think, is the question. And that question is the disturbing and pertinent disquietude that flows along these streams of perplexed reflection...

So I've recommended you for courageously staying where the smell is bad and where no breezes blow...



To: one_less who wrote (9331)10/22/2010 3:36:23 PM
From: Greg or e  Respond to of 69300
 
Of course you made multiple replies to the post and became obviously increasingly more aggravated with every one culminating in your dismissive ending of the conversation and followed immediately by your personal attack.

"I recognized in my post how a truth may be absolute and uncompromisable, while demonstrating how in practical circumstances two apposing statements may not actually be mutually exclusive."

Of course the point of the post was not that opposing statements that are not mutually exclusive may in fact be talking about the same thing, so your objection was just an thin veneer of an excuse to promote your own dogmatic religious position.

"I'm praying to God who is Jesus. They're praying to God who isn't Jesus. God can't be Jesus and not be Jesus at the same time. therefore, we both can't be praying to, loving, or worshiping God. One of us must be wrong, at bare minimum. Maybe we both are. But one thing that we can never say is that we're both right, that we're both worshiping God."

"View points are subject to individual knowledge bases, circumstance, experience, and awareness which would have to be at an omniscient level to draw the conclusion you and your author have promoted, that Christians should not be cowardly in standing behind such a declaration as uncompromisable and mutually exclusive fact."

Claiming that omniscience is necessary to make any truth claim is a truth claim itself is it not? As such, it fails to meet your own standard unless you claim omniscience for yourself. The fact is that Christians have a very well thought out and reasonable position about who and what God is. Muslims proclaim that to say Jesus is God is to commit Shirk and deny that Jesus is in any way God. Those are mutually exclusive truth claims and as Koukl noted; they may both be mistaken but they cannot logically both be true.

"You didn't remain in the logic mode of the discussion and instead preferred to attack me personally, which is where every attempt at rational discussion with you has ended to date."

No it's you that jumped off the logic train and tried to change the terms of the discussion. I tried to keep you focused on the actual point being made in the article and you simply didn't like it. In fact you proved and continue to prove a major point in the article.

"the new pluralism demands that you must not say that anyone else's belief is inferior or, worse yet, flatly mistaken. To say someone is wrong is to be intolerant, to be close-minded and provincial, to be extreme and is impossible to reason with."






To: one_less who wrote (9331)10/22/2010 4:28:57 PM
From: Greg or e  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?
by Douglas Groothuis, Ph.D.
denverseminary.edu

Muslims and Christians both worship one God, and many would argue that they are the same God. Are they?

Muslims and Christians: How to Get Along?
They both believe in one personal and transcendent God who has sent his prophets into the world. They both believe in sacred writings that record the prophetic revelations. They both believe that Jesus was a prophet who was sinless and born of a virgin. And they both worship with these beliefs firmly in place. We are speaking of Muslims and Christians, whose members comprise the two largest monotheistic religions in the world.

In the wake of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Americans have become fascinated with the beliefs and practices of Islam, which is thefastest growing religion in the world, with approximately 1.3 billion adherents. Increasingly, Muslims are immigrating to the West. In various American cities, it is not uncommon to find mosques — many of them newlybuilt — and to see women in the traditional Muslim dress mingling with American women dressed quite differently.

In light of this, many Westerners wonder what do Muslims believe and why. They also question the relationship between Islam and Christianity. Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God, but merely in different ways? Should Christians seek to present their beliefs to Muslims in the hope that the Muslim might forsake Islam and embrace Christianity? Or is this simply a waste of time at best or rude at worst?

Many instruct us to be "tolerant" and to refrain from "proselytizing" anyone. In the name of tolerance, some people say that Christians and Muslims should coexist without trying to convert (or otherwise challenge) each other because "Christians and Muslims worship the same God." This, many believe, should be good enough for Muslims and Christians. Many also believe this arrangement is good enough for the God they both worship as well. If both religions worship the same God, why should they worry about each other's spiritual state?

Religion, God and Truth
If indeed Muslims and Christians worship the same God, there would be little need for disagreement, dialogue, and debate between them. If I am satisfied to shop at one grocery store and you are satisfied to shop at another store, why should I try to convince you to shop at my store or vice versa? Do not both stores provide the food we need, even if each sells different brands? The analogy is tidy, but does it really fit? Deeper questions need to be raised if we are to settle the question of whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God. First, what are the essential teachings of Christianity and Islam? Second,what does each religion teach about worshipping its God? Third, what does each religion teach about the other religion? That is, do the core teachings of Islam and Christianity assure their adherents that members of the other religion are fine as they are because both religions "worship the same God"?

In When Religion Becomes Evil (Harper. San Francisco, 2002), Charles Kimball argues that Christians and Muslims do indeed worship the same God. Kimball rightly observes that truth claims are foundational for religion. But he claims that believers err when they hold their religious beliefs in a "rigid" or "absolute" manner. So, he argues, when some Christians criticize the Islamic view of God (Allah) as deficient, they reveal their ignorance and bigotry. Kimball asserts that "there is simply no ambiguity here. Jews, Christians, and Muslims are talking about the same deity" (p. 50). This is because the Qur'an affirms that Allah inspired the Hebrew prophets and Jesus. Moreover, the Arabic word "Allah" means "God." Are Professor Kimball and so many others who echo similar themes correct? In search of a reasonable answer, we will briefly consider the three questions from the last paragraph.

Christianity and Islam: The Claims, the Logic, and the Differences
First, what are the teachings that each religion takes to be absolutely true? Although Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic, their views of God differ considerably. Islam denies that God is a Trinity — that one God eternally exists as three co-eternal and equal persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).[1] Islam also rejects that God became a man in Jesus Christ (John 1:1-18).[2] These doctrines are cornerstones of Christianity. But God cannot be both a Trinity (Christian) and not a Trinity (Islam). This is matter of simple logic; it has nothing to do with religious intolerance or being "rigid."

For Christianity, humans are corrupted by an inherited sinful nature that cannot be overcome by any human means (Ephesians 2:1-10). But Islam denies that human have a deeply sinful human nature, claiming that we sin because we are merely weak and ignorant.[3] Christianity teaches that salvation is secured only through faith in the achievements of Jesus Christ — his life, death, and resurrection (John 3:16-18). Islam, however, implores its followers to obey the laws of the Qur'an in the hopes that they will be found worthy of paradise.[4] Since these two views contradict each other, both views cannot be true.

Second, how does each religion say worship should be offered to God? Muslims deem worship of the Trinity to be polytheistic and thus blasphemous. Worship of Jesus — whom they deem only human — is anathema. Yet these beliefs are essential for Christian worship. One must worship God "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). Worship requires assent to the truth of God (the Trinity), belief in the gospel, trust in Jesus Christ, and submission to God’s will. While Muslims emphasize submission to Allah ("Islam" means submission), they do not submit to the God revealed in the Bible. This exposes another irreconcilable difference between Islam and Christianity.

Third, what does each religion make of the other one? Muslims and Christians have historically tried to convert each other, since they both view adherents of other religions to be misguided. Islam seeks converts worldwide because it believes Allah is supreme over all and must be so recognized. Christians are commanded to take the gospel into all the nations and to baptize converts into the name of the triune God of the Bible (Matthew 28:18-20).

Neither Christianity nor Islam can logically endorse the other religion’s distinctive claims and practices without denying its own.

Much more needs to be discussed concerning Muslim and Christian relations in a religiously pluralistic world. However, we must conclude that despite their common monotheism, Islam and Christianity have very different views of God, worship, and mission. Therefore, it is unreasonable to claim that they worship the same God. Although Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic, their views of God differ considerably.

Copyright © 2005 Douglas Groothuis. All rights reserved. International copyright secured.

More articles by Dr. Groothuis

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Notes
[1] See The Qur'an, Surah 112:1-4, which denies that God "begat" a son. Surah 4:171 commands Muslims to not say "three" with respect to God; see also Surah 5:73. However, the Qur'an claims that the Christian doctrine of Trinity affirms that it is comprised of the Father, the Son, and Mary (Surah 5:116). The Bible, however, never attributes deity to Mary. For more on how the Qur'an understands Jesus and the Trinity, see Chawkat Moucarry, The Prophet and the Messiah: An Arab Christian's Perspective on Islam and Christianity (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2001), 184-195. [Return to article]

[2] See The Qur'an, Surah 5:115-18 where Jesus is reported to have denied his own deity; see also Surah 9:30-31. [Return to article]

[3] See Harold Netland, Dissonant Voices: Religious Pluralism and the Question of Truth (Vancouver, BC: Regent University Press, 1997), 89-90. [Return to article]

[4] See the Qur’an, Surah 36:54; see also Surah 82:19. [Return to article]