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Politics : Actual left/right wing discussion -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Oeconomicus who wrote (8683)	11/27/2010 1:25:05 AM
From: koan	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 10087

It is also quite rude (since you wish to use that tone) to use incorrect esoteria to make a distinction I never implied. I never posted a peep about classic liberalism, quite the opposite! So you should not have involved it in the conversation at all, let alone use it as a defense! I said quite clearly I use the dictionary definition of liberals. Classical liberalism is a specific ideology. Liberalism in general is much more broad and is more a state of mind: thefreedictionary.com 1) "a. Not limited to, or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism. Will Durant's great introduction to the Greek portion of his Clasic work on the History of Civilzation says it best. "The persistent effort to subordinate fancy to reason is the dominate quality of the Greek mind. Ergo, Greek literature is modern, or rather contemporary, we find it hard to understand Dante or Milton, but Euripides and Thucydides are kin to us mentally and belong to our age. This is because, though myths may differ, reason remains the same, and the love of reason, makes brothers of its lovers in all times and everywhere. Also, while Plato undoubtedly influences modern American "liberals", neither he nor they are liberal in the classical sense in which the word applies to America's founding fathers. Liberal, from the Latin liberalis: pertaining to freedom. ETA: It's also fairly obvious why modern, as opposed to classical, liberals are attracted to Plato. They tend to imagine themselves to be philosophers, governed by reason rather than desire, and thus entitled to be part of the Guardian class. However, modern liberals seem to misunderstand what it means to be a Guardian. I prescribe further reading. <<Also, while Plato undoubtedly influences modern American "liberals", neither he nor they are liberal in the classical sense in which the word applies to America's founding fathers. Liberal, from the Latin liberalis: pertaining to freedom. ETA: It's also fairly obvious why modern, as opposed to classical, liberals are attracted to Plato. They tend to imagine themselves to be philosophers, governed by reason rather than desire, and thus entitled to be part of the Guardian class. However, modern liberals seem to misunderstand what it means to be a Guardian. I prescribe further reading.

To: Oeconomicus who wrote (8683)	11/27/2010 1:39:49 AM
From: koan	2 Recommendations Respond to of 10087

Further to the post regarding democracy. Plato did indeed love it but felt it would lead to disorder as one persons freedom imposed on another's freedom. Plato, like our founding fathers, did not have our knowledge or experience with democracy, but he correctly anticipated its failings. Still he loved it. We say today, "democracy is the worst form of government save for all others". Democracy has huge flaws like tyranny of the majority over the minority as Alexis De Tocqueville pointed out so well in his great work: Democracy in America". Plato anticipated the need for laws, or state, to resolve these conflicts. But we have learned today that laws only go so far to save the people from their tyrannical freedom and democracy. E.g. We used democracy to allow slavery, and the south used democracy to reign tyranny over African Americans for 100 years after institutionalized slavery ended. And today the right wing is using democracy to turn our country into a Plutocracy. Still, all there is is democracy.