re gold that is hk real estate, clearing e-mails
take a guess who be the ones short hkg real estate :0)
From: j
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 8:58:57 PM
Subject: Re: HK rents third most expensive for expatriates
one guess:
fed funds rate goes to 5%
because of economic recovery(?)
usd up relative to rmb
rmb seeks out hkg
hkg real estate goes up
because hk real estate is to a large degree unleveraged by rmb moolah
that be my hope
hkg real estate, like gold, is both a fear of tyranny as well as a greed for freedom trade, up a lot vs up a little, and whenever tanks, buy the dip
do not think about it, just do
or so i realized after a decade of being short the stuffing out of me, and then i saw the lights, bright at old airport, got taste of goodness, saw more lights, ...
From: M
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 6:20:51 PM
Subject: Re: HK rents third most expensive for expatriates
I wonder how "cheap" Hong Kong real estate would seem if Fed Funds was at 5%....The Fed is increasingly behind the curve......
M
From: d
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 6:17:30 PM
Subject: Re: HK rents third most expensive for expatriates
Lunch box in central hk50d
Dried fish up 60pct
10pct of rice tainted
10pct was food incr in china in jan
Hk property was up because of fed lo rates, china buyers...and china growth partly due to lo interest rates...
From: j
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 4:04:41 PM
Subject: Re: HK rents third most expensive for expatriates
I suspect hk real estate is in truth not a bubble in the traditional debt-ly sense, and is high because of genuine supply n imperatives (freedom/security, goodness, body count, space) demand; iow "progressive value discovery" chasing "continuous worth enhancement".
My central macdonald's big breakfast this day cost hkd 14.5 (usd 1.87) comprised of sausage mc muffin, scrambled eggs, hash brown, and hkd 9 (usd 1.16) for large OJ.
Whatever they sell for in usa-dom, the cost is I suspect more in usa, and after-tax profit less in same usa, than hkg.
On the one hand one could attribute the price difference to exchange rate manipulation by hkg, or
indict usa for being way too bubbly on wage+tax+real estate relative to hkg.
Iow, there is no real estate bubble in hkg. There is real estate value, value discovery, and absolute/relative worth enhancement.
"Sent via CSL BlackBerry."
From: B
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:46:03 +0800
Subject: Re: HK rents third most expensive for expatriates
M, that's US$2,700/month berthing fee vs. 'expensive' Southern Californication fees of $8.50/foot or $425/month for a 50'
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:34 PM, M wrote:
MOORING Aberdeen Marina Club Wet Berth leasing 50" wet berth HK$ 21,000 per Month saffron-marina.com
That's about US$35,000 per year for a 50' berth - guessing US$50,000 for a 70-foot berth would give a 5% yield if you paid US$1 million.
M
From: J
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 1:20:18 PM
Subject: Re: HK rents third most expensive for expatriates
looks viable
re boat people living in hong kong google.com
re cost of living squarefoot.com.hk
descriptive blogs.wsj.com
Christopher Shay/The Wall Street Journal
Home for the Gould family: a 2,800-square-foot boat in Aberdeen.
David Godfrey and his wife, Tracey, used to live in an apartment overlooking Discovery Bay. But years of watching boats from their balcony gave them a longing for life on the water—and in 2008, they moved into the 70-foot-long Strangely Brown, docked in a marina on the Gold Coast.
“It’s like you’re on vacation when you’re home,” says Mr. Godfrey, sitting on his boat’s back deck as fish jump behind him.
In a city in which 300-square-foot apartments are commonplace, Hong Kong is one of few places where people move onto a boat to gain space. The Godfreys’ boat has 2,500 square feet of interior room plus a 1,000-square-foot roof and 450-square-foot front balcony. By contrast, one of their previous apartments measured 900 square feet.
No wonder so many find the openness of the ocean appealing. The Gold Coast marina is just one of three live-aboard marinas in Hong Kong. There’s one in Aberdeen and another in Discovery Bay—one of the largest live-aboard marinas in the world, with 214 spots designed for live-aboard boats. About 350 households in Hong Kong use a boat as their primary home, estimates Garry Smith, managing director at Saffron Marina, which sells boats, moorings and marina memberships on the secondary market.
A boat, like a car, is generally perceived as a depreciating asset -– but marina berths and swing moorings are not. In Hong Kong there are essentially no open spaces in the marinas for new boats, Mr. Smith says; the only place to purchase one is on the secondary market. Most secondhand live-aboard boats come with places to park one’s boat. Marina berths and swing moorings, where a boat is attached to a buoy instead of land, have become hot commodities — and this won’t change anytime soon, says Mr. Smith: There are currently no plans to build more marinas for large boats.
Hong Kong is one of few places where people can move onto a boat to gain more space. A look at marina living in Aberdeen and Discovery Bay.
Michele Cameron, who owns the boat agency HK Boats and Homes, sold a rare open berth for 2.3 million Hong Kong dollars (US$296,000) in November. She says the price would have been HK$400,000 five years ago, since there were still spots available to buy then. Both Ms. Cameron and Mr. Smith say they’ve never had a client sell a live-aboard boat for less than he paid, thanks to the increasing value of the berths. For Ms. Cameron, that’s 44 boats over five years.
In Hong Kong, buying a boat often means getting more space for one’s dollar than purchasing an apartment. A four-bedroom, 1,600-square-foot boat in Discovery Bay is currently for sale, berth included, for HK$2.9 million—a sum that in the nearby land-based neighborhood buys a 700-square-foot apartment.
There are additional costs of living on a boat, though, including the swing mooring or marina berth, membership in a boat or marina club, insurance (the annual premium is about 1% of the value of the boat), the required government license and the annual hull cleaning and other regular maintenance. The total cost varies depending on the location and size of the berth. In Discovery Bay, the highest total monthly fees including membership and maintenance for most boats is around HK$16,000, more than most buildings’ management fees but a far cry from what rent would be for a similar-size apartment.
Jake Gould, 24, who has lived on a 2,800-square-foot boat in Aberdeen with his parents and two siblings for two years, says boat living has cut housing costs by at least 40%.
“There are huge savings,” he says, though the subject the Goulds can’t stop talking about isn’t the low cost. It’s the lifestyle.
“It’s very relaxed, very tranquil,” says Jake’s mother, Jackie Gould, 55.
There’s guaranteed roof access, says Liat Gould, 22, and a 360-degree view. “You have sunlight all day,” she says. There’s also lots of storage space, a contrast to the closetless state of many Hong Kong homes. Much of it is tucked away in nooks and crannies. Zach Gould, 18, says there are some storage cupboards in his bedroom he didn’t even know existed until he’d been living there for nearly two years.
That’s not to say life on a boat is perfect. There’s upkeep, and if something on board breaks, it can be difficult to find someone willing to fix it, Jackie says. Many local repairmen, she says, simply refuse as a matter of policy to work on a boat. The location might not be ideal either—none of Hong Kong’s live-aboard marinas is close to downtown. The commute from Discovery Bay to Central, for instance, is about half an hour by ferry. For those who don’t have a berth and instead use a swing mooring, there are also the logistics of sailing ashore.
And then there are the water rats. Many boat families have dogs or cats to keep then away; the Goulds have another method. Zach keeps his air gun ready to go, and uses it to pick off the rats as they climb the ropes to their boat.
Still, as the sun sets over Aberdeen, the Gould family and two friends chat, laugh and prepare to barbecue on the roof. The appeal of boat life is ultimately about the simple comforts. Says Jackie, “Just to sit up on the roof in the evening is glorious.”
From: B
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 12:56:50 PM
Subject: HK rents third most expensive for expatriates
M, that houseboat looking sweeter and sweeter...OUCH!
But ECA said luxury residential rents in Hong Kong easily surpassed Tokyo; it said a three-bedroom apartment on The Peak would be US$16,700 per month, about 30 per cent more than an equivalent property in the Japanese capital.
HK rents third most expensive for expatriates
Sandy Li
Updated on Feb 16, 2011
Hong Kong has leapt six places to become the world's third most expensive city for expatriates to rent a two-bedroom apartment, according to a survey released by human resources consultant ECA International.
ECA's latest accommodation report said Hong Kong's 22 per cent surge in rents last year propelled it from 9th place at the end of 2009, to 3rd position last year.
The average monthly rental for a two-bedroom apartment climbed to US$2,830 last year. This was in contrast to the previous year, when rents fell around 25 per cent in Hong Kong.
"Land in Hong Kong is already expensive due to the lack of space. Additionally, low interest rates, high liquidity in the market and a shortage of supply have contributed to pushing rents up," says Lee Quane, regional director of ECA Asia.
Tokyo is the most expensive location, with an average rental of US$4,352 for a two-bedroom unit, while Moscow ranked second at US$3,500.
But ECA said luxury residential rents in Hong Kong easily surpassed Tokyo; it said a three-bedroom apartment on The Peak would be US$16,700 per month, about 30 per cent more than an equivalent property in the Japanese capital.
"Currency movement can have a big impact on costs for companies sending employees on assignment. Tokyo is a case in point as the strengthening of the yen against major currencies, including the greenback, means that while rental prices quoted in yen dropped 7 per cent, they increased 2 per cent when converted into dollars," Quane said.
"The fact that Hong Kong has gone up the ranking, despite the currency being pegged to the weakened US dollar, makes rent increases there even more significant."
The index compares rental costs in more than 120 locations worldwide, concentrating on the areas and types of accommodation commonly used by expatriates. The figures help managers assess the provision of housing or housing allowances as part of international assignment packages for staff.
Last month, a survey conducted by Savills ranked Hong Kong as the most expensive city in the world for housing in 2010.
"Residential rents are trending upwards," said Alva To, head of consultancy for property advisers DTZ in Hong Kong. He expects residential rents to rise five to 10 per cent this year in line with the estimated 10 per cent increase of home prices.
To said apartments on Conduit Road, Mid-Levels, a favourite with expatriates, leased at an average monthly rental of HK$30 per square foot. A 700 sq ft two-bedroom flat would cost about HK$21,000 per month, which was close to ECA's survey finding, he said.
Simon Lo Wing-fai, director of research and advisory at Colliers International (Hong Kong), however, said rents for serviced apartments jumped significantly last year with a two-bedroom in prime locations such as Central, Causeway Bay and Tsim Sha Tsui costing nearly HK$40,000 a month.
ECA's estimated accommodation cost of HK$22,000 per month would only secure a 500 sq ft serviced studio apartment, he said.
Lo says an increasing number of international financial services firms and legal companies are bringing expatriates to Hong Kong.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 3:23 PM, M wrote:
Any thoughts or input?
I could see a wave of selling from rich out-of-towners.
And how would this affect overseas owners?
It seems to play into my theme that real assets that are movable are not easily taxed.
But if a real asset cannot be moved, then expect the possibility of much higher taxes, especially for non-residents.
M
From today's Wall Street Journal:
Connecticut and New Jersey residents with a Hamptons summer cottage or a Manhattan pied-a-terre are about to get a nasty surprise: New York state wants more taxes from them.
A New York court ruled last month that all income earned by a New Canaan, Conn., couple is subject to New York state taxes because they own a summer home on Long Island they used only a few times a year. They have been hit with an additional tax bill of $1.06 million.
Tax experts and real estate brokers say this ruling could boost the tax bill for thousands of business executives who own New York City apartments they use only occasionally. It could also hurt sales in the Hamptons and New York's other vacation-home communities.
"People will think twice about spending any summer time in New York," says Robert Willens, a New York-based tax consultant. "The amount of tax they could be subjected to is likely to outweigh the benefit."
A spokesman for the state Taxation Department issued a written statement that said it was "pleased" with the decision. "However, these cases are fact-intensive and as such each case stands on its own specific fact pattern," it said.
For years, New York law stated that residents of another state who spend more than 183 days a year in New York have to pay taxes on any income they make in this state. But they generally haven't had to pay New York taxes on income they make outside of the state or on their spouses' income if they work elsewhere.
Under the recent ruling, this might change for many out-of-state residents who own vacation homes or apartments here. In effect, it reinterprets what counts as a permanent residence.
In defining a "permanent place of abode," New York tax code specifically excludes "a mere camp or cottage, which is suitable and used only for vacations." New York tax experts say the new ruling is the first they recall that counts summer homes as permanent residences.
"This is going to open up a Pandora's box," says Eric Kramer, a tax attorney in Uniondale, N.Y. "I don't think anyone previously thought vacation homes would count as a permanent residence."
Income that now could be taxed by New York includes capital gains, dividends and securities, attorneys said. In the event of an audit, these homeowners would also be responsible for back taxes, plus interest and penalties, as a result of their New York property.
Judge Joseph Pinto, a New York administrative law judge, made the novel ruling in a 2009 case that was affirmed last month on appeal by the New York state tax appeals tribunal. Mr. Pinto seized on what is meant by a permanent residence, which is the benchmark for whether all, or just the in-state portion, of an individual's income is subject to New York state tax.
Mr. Pinto ruled that the couple's Long Island vacation home qualifies under the law as a permanent abode because it was suitable for living year-round—whether or not the couple actually stayed in the home wasn't relevant. Under the ruling, if an owner doesn't spend a single a day in a home it could still count toward a permanent residence.
The Napeague, Long Island, house was purchased by John and Laura Barker for $260,000 in 1997, according to court documents. From 2002 to 2004, the period that was assessed for back taxes, the Barkers said they spent only a few days a year at the home, usually during the summer.
The appeals court upheld the ruling that it's not the owners' intended use of the house that matters, but whether the home could be used all year long. The court said that the house is approximately 1,122 square feet with heat, electricity, and internet service "making it very habitable and comfortable year round," according to court documents.
The court also said that Mrs. Barker's parents, who sometimes stayed at the home throughout the colder months, were evidence that it was a permanent residence even though the Barkers never used it that way.
The Barkers countered that they used the home only a few days a year, adding that the refrigerator was usually empty, court documents showed. They cited clothing not being stored there as evidence that it was a part-time residence.
"We think the decision is wrong. We are evaluating our options including a continuation of appeals," Mr. Barker said. "We imagine this decision will have a chilling effect on New Your tourism and real estate values among other second and third order effects."
Tax attorneys said they were unlikely to get the ruling overturned.
Best, B |
