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To: S. maltophilia who wrote (415056)5/9/2011 3:57:50 PM
From: Broken_Clock  Respond to of 436258
 
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton both expressed concerns on Monday about the recent security crackdown that has occurred in China.

Biden and Clinton jointly raised the issue at the opening session of two days of high level talks between the United States and China. They noted the large number of arrests that have occurred in China with the government detaining lawyers, activists, journalists and bloggers in a crackdown widely viewed as a Chinese response to forestall any Middle East-style democracy protests.

---

<<didn't Obama just shoot her unarmed husband>>
No, some Seals did.

---

and Bush didn't invade Iraq. Some soldiers did.
And Bush didn't torture or kidnap anyone, neither did Cheney. Only their minions. that is, of course, why Obama holds to the same policies.

The hypocrisy is way off the charts defending Bush III



To: S. maltophilia who wrote (415056)5/9/2011 4:04:10 PM
From: Broken_Clock  Respond to of 436258
 
Obama has shelved the torture debate by not going after Bush/Cheney when he had the total dem majority. Yes or No?

Monday, May 09, 2011


Tortured Debate

by digby

Word:

“I never thought I’d live in a country where we would debate whether we should endorse torture as an official policy. Was some information obtained through torture? Probably yeah. Could it have been obtained through more professional methods the intelligence professionals recommended? Almost certainly yes. We could have gotten it sooner and better.”

That's Thomas Ricks in response to the ever more unhinged torture advocate Liz Cheney.

Steve Benen has the rundown of her chilling appearance on yesterday's This Week including her dark, portentous claim that Obama's abandonment of the torture regime means it's now impossible to gather intelligence about terrorism anymore.

It still jars me to hear people dryly debating this on television. I know that torture have always happened at the American government's hand and I'm not naive enough to think that we've suddenly become more primitive and violent. The history of the United States on that count is not exactly hearts and flowers. But I do not believe that this issue was considered publicly open for debate in recent times until the Cheney regime made it so. Now, there is still some genuflecting to normal morality in that even Liz Cheney still claims that the medieval waterboarding or more recent uses of psychological and pharmacological treatments are not really torture. But it's a throwaway line delivered perfunctorily as if it's one of those disclaimers at the end of the Viagra commercials.

That she is still given the platform to insist that torture is necessary keeps the debate alive and I would expect that all presidents reserve the right to employ it if they feel its necessary and will have no trouble making that argument if they have to. It's no longer taboo. It's mainstream. After all, President Obama himself used the strange wording "the United States doesn't torture" instead of "the United States doesn't torture anymore."



To: S. maltophilia who wrote (415056)5/9/2011 11:29:09 PM
From: Broken_Clock  Respond to of 436258
 
cageprisoners.com

startling, but true?



To: S. maltophilia who wrote (415056)5/9/2011 11:44:16 PM
From: Broken_Clock  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 436258
 
"And it also points out just how dumb it was for Obama to be making jokes about those drone attacks on national TV at that stupid White House Correspondence Dinner. I'm not saying anyone should be censored But he is the president, innocent people are dying in those attacks and it's causing a huge amount of unrest in Pakistan. It wasn't that funny and certainly wasn't political satire or some kind of important blow for free speech. All presidents should probably make it a rule not to yuk it up over WMD and air attacks. It's unnecessary." -digby
digbysblog.blogspot.com

Wow, really heavy commentary there from the 'left'
+++

May 9, 2011

"Where is Your Democracy?"
counterpunch.org
The Age of Predators

By KATHY KELLY

On May 5, 2011, CNN World News asked whether killing Osama bin Laden was legal under international law. Other news commentary has questioned whether it would have been both possible and advantageous to bring Osama bin Laden to trial rather than kill him.

World attention has been focused, however briefly, on questions of legality regarding the killing of Osama bin Laden. But, with the increasing use of Predator drones to kill suspected "high value targets" in Pakistan and Afghanistan, extrajudicial killings by U.S. military forces have become the new norm.

Just three days after Osama bin Laden was killed, an attack employing remote-control aerial drones killed fifteen people in Pakistan and wounded four. Last month, a drone attack killed 44 people in Pakistan’s tribal region. CNN reports that their Islamabad bureau has counted four drone strikes over the last month and a half. Friday's suspected drone strike was the 21st this year. There were 111 strikes in 2010. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan estimated that 957 innocent civilians were killed in 2010.

I’m reminded of an encounter I had, in May, 2010 ,when a journalist and a social worker from North Waziristan met with a small Voices for Creative Nonviolence delegation in Pakistan and described, in gory and graphic detail, the scenes of drone attacks which they had personally witnessed: the carbonized bodies, burned so fully they could be identified by legs and hands alone, the bystanders sent flying like dolls through the air to break, with shattered bones and sometimes-fatal brain injuries, upon walls and stone.

“Do Americans know about the drones?” the journalist asked me.

I said I thought that awareness was growing on University campuses and among peace groups.

“This isn’t what I’m asking,” he politely insisted. “What I want to know is if average Americans know that their country is attacking Pakistan with drones that carry bombs. Do they know this?”

“Truthfully,” I said, “I don’t think so.”

“Where is your democracy?” he asked me. “Where is your democracy?”

Ideally, in a democracy, people are educated about important matters, and they can influence decisions about these issues by voting for people who represent their point of view.

Only a handful of U.S. officials have broached the issue of whether or not it is right for the U.S. to use unmanned aerial vehicles to function as prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner in the decision to assassinate anyone designated as a “high value target” in faraway Pakistan or Afghanistan.

Would we want unmanned aerial vehicles piloted by another country to fly over the U.S., targeting individuals deemed to be a threat to the safety of their people, firing Hellfire missiles or dropping 500 pound bombs over suspected “high value targets” on the hunch of a soldier or general without evidence and without any consideration of which innocent civilians will also be killed?

Fully informed citizens might be invited to consider the Golden Rule of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you,” but they would certainly be involved in the debate over how we will be treated in future years and decades when these weapons have proliferated. In 1945, only one country possessed the atomic bomb, but within decades, the “nuclear club” had expanded to five declared and four non-declared nuclear-armed states in a much less certain world. Besides the risk of nuclear war, this weapon proliferation has consumed resources that could have been directed toward feeding a hungry world or eradicating disease or easing the effects of impoverishment.

As of now, worldwide, 49 companies make over 150 different drone aircraft. Drone merchants expect that drone sales will earn $20.2 billion over the next 10 years for aerospace war manufacturers, with 20.6 billion spent on Research and Development. Who knows? One day drone missiles may be aimed at us.

Also worth noting is the observation that drones will make it politically convenient for any country to order military actions without risking their soldiers’ lives, thereby making it easier, and more tempting, to start wars which may eventually escalate to result in massive loss of life, both military and civilian.

Voices for Creative Nonviolence believes that standing alongside people who bear the brunt of our wars helps us gain needed insights. Where you stand determines what you see.

In October and again in December of 2010, while in Afghanistan, I met with a large family living in a wretched refugee camp. They had fled their homes in the San Gin district of the Helmand Province after a drone attack killed a mother there and her five children. The woman’s husband showed us photos of his children’s bloodied corpses. His niece, Juma Gul, age 9, had survived the attack. She and I huddled next to each other inside a hut made of mud on a chilly December morning. Juma Gul’s father stooped in front of us and gently unzipped her jacket, showing me that his daughter’s arm had been amputated by shrapnel when the U.S. missile hit their home in San Gin.

Next to Juma Gul was her brother, whose leg had been mangled in the attack. He apparently has no access to adequate medical care and experiences constant pain.

It's impossible to conjecture what would have happened had Osama bin Laden been apprehended and brought to appear before a court of law, charged with crimes against humanity because of his alleged role in masterminding the 9/11 attacks. But, I feel certain beyond doubt that Juma Gul posed no threat whatsoever to the U.S., and if she were brought before a court of law and witnesses were helped to understand that she was attacked by a U.S. unmanned aerial vehicle for no reason other than that she happened to live in proximity to a potential high value target, she would be vindicated of any suspicion that she committed a crime. The same might not be true for those who attacked her.

Kathy Kelly (kathy@vcnv.org) co-coordinates Voices for Creative Nonviolence. Visit www.vcnv.org for a resource packet on drone warfare vcnv.org