SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Evolution -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: average joe who wrote (18666)12/21/2011 2:24:06 AM
From: Greg or e1 Recommendation  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
May062011
Debunking John Loftus
Skilled rhetorician John Loftus deftly demonstrates1 how poor Osama bin Laden was simply the victim of religion, like the rest of the silly theists:

Osama Bin Laden was probably a good man; sincere, devout and God fearing.

What’s John’s definition of “good”? ‘Cause mine tends not to involve planning to fly planes into buildings and killing thousands of people (but that’s just me). And is there any particular support for these claims? Is Loftus privy to evidence that bin Laden was a genuine and truthful person? Of course he’s not! Ditto to evidence of whether bin Laden was devout or God-fearing. But having to provide evidence would get in the way of his point.

But all it takes to make good people do evil is religion. Keep that in mind.

Here’s what you really want to keep in mind: if it will support his worldview, Loftus will make things up. Again, he has no evidence in the first place to conclude that bin Laden was a “good” man. But even if he did, he furthermore has no evidence that it was his religion as opposed to anything else (nationalism, childhood trauma, indigestion) that made him “do evil.” In fact, the weight of the evidence, that is the hundreds of millions of Muslims who don’t decide to kill thousands of people and strap bombs to children’s chests and so forth, would argue against the fact that it was his religion that led to bin Laden’s doing evil.

He was deluded in the same way as other believers.

So, again, he was deluded in the “same way” as other believers, even though millions of them manage not to turn into bloodthirsty terrorists.

Some delusions cause more harm than others though.

Well, which ones? It might be useful to know! Perhaps in that case, we can just deal with those delusions, rather than impugn all religious belief, no?

The problem is he will never know he was deluded.

Yeah, when I first heard that bin Laden had been killed, that’s what upset me as well.

Now, let’s have some fun re-writing Loftus’ post as a mad-lib:

[Clearly-evil person] was probably a good man; [three adjectives that describe people I don’t like]. But all it takes to make good people do evil is [the thing I don’t like]. Keep that in mind. That is the lesson of his life. He was deluded in the same way as other [people I don’t like]. Some delusions cause more harm than others though, and he caused a great deal of it. The problem is he will never know he was deluded. Neither will any of the rest of [the people I don’t like]. What a waste of a life.

For example:

Josef Stalin was probably a good man; sincere, respectful, and committed to the cause of socialism. But all it takes to make good people do evil is atheism. Keep that in mind. That is the lesson of his life. He was deluded in the same way as other atheists. Some delusions cause more harm than others though, and he caused a great deal of it. The problem is he will never know he was deluded. Neither will any of the rest of the atheists. What a waste of a life.

You can play at home! Works best for ages 2–6.


    In case his sense gets the better of him and Loftus decides to alter the post (or what I like to call “pulling a Loftus”), here’s the screencap. ?




To: average joe who wrote (18666)12/21/2011 4:21:17 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 69300
 
Dr. Craig earlier mentioned Hitler, Auschwitz, and Dachau in his apologetics book, consider this response: Germany was a Christian nation—the heart of the Lutheran Protestant Reformation! How could a Christian people allow these evil deeds to happen and even be his willing executioners? How? The Holocaust and the horrible things done to millions of Jews and various minorities is more a problem for the Christian ethic, because it was a more or less Christian nation that did these horrible deeds.

How many times does this get repeated and it never sinks in ? It wasn't just Germany but whole of Europe, France , Italy , Spain & Russia at constant wars already for centuries. How this ignored is beyond the pale...

All christians are the same for one argument for all good & selectively in the next we've now moved from the tenant that there are good Christians & bad ones . How convenient to be able to ignore the facts so well , how autistically relativistic & simple minded to not see the "dellusion of One God" that in reality always turns out to be so many . (Or put the most rational & succint way , an ongoing perpetual "God Dellusion" .

It all fits into the framework of the evolutionary order one can assume, everyman needing a "mentor" if he is to survive , the same applys to a group and the "idea" of "God" acts as a nexus for the tribe's wisdom & knowledge base as well as centralizing authority & act as a divine guide/referee . How amazing it is that there is no difference between the desire of a tribe to evolve ancient witch doctors to interpret signs & mediate the spirits & the messiah/prophets later down the road .

Just look at the two messiahs we have on this board ....so radiant like the Sun, so filled with awe inspired wisdom of the centuries .



To: average joe who wrote (18666)12/21/2011 7:10:38 AM
From: Solon  Respond to of 69300
 
Loftus does a good job of clarifying the argument. He makes it easy for even the deluded and the dishonest to see and understand. But will they! NO!

The shame is that the absurdity of a fairy tale even needs to be dispensed with through rigorous philosophy. But there you have it! You cannot educate an idiot or a wilfully dishonest person.



To: average joe who wrote (18666)12/21/2011 10:27:14 AM
From: Brumar89  Respond to of 69300
 
Christians have a guide to discern morality. They also have a religion that tells them they're sinners who needs Christ's grace. Atheists don't have either and their behavior when they have power shows it.