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To: GROUND ZERO™ who wrote (29042)	2/17/2012 4:01:11 PM
From: chartseer	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 223204

That isn't what constitutional scholar muslim indonesian citizen brilliant barry sortoro says and thinks. Whom should I believe you or him?

To: GROUND ZERO™ who wrote (29042)	2/18/2012 1:03:29 AM
From: Sam	6 Recommendations Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 223204

OT-- If you really want to talk about what is or isn't in the Constitution and why that is so, it might be good to read the debates that the people who actually attended the convention in 1787 said. Fortunately, James Madison had done a great deal of research on constitutions in the 2 or 3 years prior to the convention, and was frustrated by the lack of first hand accounts. So he decided to sit in the front row every day (one of the few people to actually attend every day), and took copious notes, developing his own form of shorthand to do so, and spoke with fellow attendees at night to try to make his account as accurate as possible. He wanted to leave an account of what they had done for future historians. They had a gag rule in place so that none of the attendees would feel pressured by outside influences to say one thing or another, and they also promised not to talk about what was said to outsiders, people felt free to say what they wanted and thought was right for themselves and their state. Everyone knew what Madison was doing, though, and why, and knew that he wouldn't publish his notes for a long time, if ever. In the 1820s/1830s, Madison got them out, put them in good order, and had them published after his own death and after the death of all of the convention participants. You can read them in book form here: amazon.com or you can read them online at the Avalon Project (that is just one free online source) here: avalon.law.yale.edu Or, if you want to be really ambitious, you can go to a good academic library, and look at the work of Max Farrand, who was the scholar who did the most work on the Convention of anyone, collecting every scrap of paper he could find on it, cross referencing them all, and publishing them in as orderly a manner as possible. Of course, there are plenty of secondary sources on the Convention, but many of them are just skewed to suit one political view or another. I have my own favorites, but won't bore you with them. You should decide for yourself, but at least let your views be informed by what actually happened there.