To: koan who wrote (10086 ) 2/22/2012 11:43:39 PM From: TimF 3 Recommendations Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 85487 Its not simply math. Even your own choice of links about it hardly describe it in such terms. And Wikipedia is hardly neutral on climate issues. It has a long history of tilting the articles in the climate alarmists direction (which doesn't automaticlly make it wrong, merely that like any other source, it has its biases) Something like this can't be a matter of simple math. The reliability of the temperature proxies, the selection of data, etc. go far beyond anything that can be considered simple math (or even something that can be limited to just math at all). --- "...But the team was driven past the point of no return—the scientists’ reputations and careers became so attached to the Hockey Stick that its defence overwhelmed their professional integrity and scientific objectivity. Time and again the goal of enshrining the Hockey Stick as the robust “consensus” view took precedence over due scientific process and disclosure. The English members of the team produced some tree ring graph lines that could be added to Mann et al’s graph to bolster its intergovernmental credentials. When evidence of the Medieval Warm Period became apparent it was rationalised away as likely to be localised rather than worldwide. When proxy tree ring graph lines declined inexplicably in the late twentieth century they were cropped short and replaced with instrumental lines—sometimes the replacement was noted, sometimes it was hidden. Borehole studies that showed higher temperatures during the Medieval Warm Period than during the Current Warm Period were shunted out of the picture, except for a consolation prize of being used to demonstrate rising temperatures since the Little Ice Age..."quadrant.org.au And to say that "arguments from authority are very weak." Makes no sense at all. How is that logical? Who would have more authority than experts-lol? "Argument from Authority" is a well known term with a long history. It doesn't mean "argument made by experts". An argument from authority is an argument along the lines of "X says Y, so Y has to be true" (or for a weaker version of it "Y is likely true" or "and so we should defer to X about Y") And argument from a person who is an expert or authority in a certain area is not an argument from authority, its a real argument, relying on data and logic, not "this is true because he said so". An argument from authority made based on an illegitimate authority (which Chu might reasonably be considered because this isn't his field, and which to an extent everyone in the world could be considered in this area, since there is so much complexity and uncertainty about it) is considered a logical fallacy. An argument from authority from a legitimate authority, someone who really is an expert in the field and is recognized as such, is a weak inductive argument, but not a fallacy. There is a big difference between "Chu says this, so this is right", and laying out an actual argument from Chu that shows it to be right.