SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Evolution -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Greg or e who wrote (27800)6/30/2012 11:00:37 PM
From: 2MAR$1 Recommendation  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
"Human hands and feet have fishy origins , Fin-sprouting gene also guides the growth of digits in land vertebrates"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21382577/

Every day, scientists discover new genetic links between organisms that explain how seemingly unique structures evolved from pre-existing structures like this one above , the case for evolution grows & grows & grows .

That is the topic at hand ..

meme



To: Greg or e who wrote (27800)6/30/2012 11:02:52 PM
From: 2MAR$1 Recommendation  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
There are all sorts of findings and experiments that could have falsified evolution. In the century-and-a-half since Darwin published his theory, not one has ...unless you can produce a precambrian fossil of a rabbit with wings & feathers?
newscientist.com

To count as science, hypotheses and theories should make predictions that might turn out to be wrong. In other words, it should be possible to falsify these ideas. Some claim this is not true of evolution, but this is simply because we find it hard to imagine how different life might have been if it had not evolved.

When asked what would disprove evolution, the biologist J. B. S. Haldane reportedly growled: "Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian". What he meant is that the progression over time seen in the millions of fossils unearthed around the world is exactly what evolutionary theory predicts.

Unicellular organisms, for example, appear before multicellular ones. Jawless fish precede jawed fish. Lunged fish precede amphibians. Amphibians precede reptiles. Reptiles with scales precede mammals and birds with modified scales (fur and feathers). Apes precede humans. All it would take is one or two exceptions to seriously challenge the theory.

Fraudulent claims Clearly if the first fossil amphibians were older than the first fossil fish, it would show that amphibians could not have evolved from fish. No such exceptions have ever been found anywhere. There have been a few claims to this effect, of course, but even most creationists admit that these claims are fraudulent.

Rabbits with feathers could also disprove evolution. There are animals with a mixture of mammalian and reptilian features, such as echidnas, and there are fossils with a mixture of bird and reptilian features, such as the toothy archaeopteryx. However, no animals have a mixture of mammalian and bird features.

This is just what would be expected if birds and mammals evolved from separate groups of reptiles. There is no reason why an "intelligent designer" would not have mixed up features, such as creating mammals with feathers and efficient bird-like lungs, or furry, breast-feeding ostriches.

Furthermore, if all organisms were created to fulfil particular roles, they might be unable to evolve. Instead countless experiments, both planned and unplanned, show that organisms of all kinds evolve and adapt to changing conditions, providing the changes are not too abrupt. The breeding of plants and animals, or artificial selection, has produced an incredible range of forms in just a few thousand years, such as turning wolves into chihuahuas and great danes. In the laboratory, researchers have been able to produce bacteria, plants and animals with all kinds of novel characteristics. They have even produced entirely new species .

In the wild, too, there are numerous examples of evolution in action. Many viruses and bacteria have changed dramatically in the space of a human lifetime, from HIV adapting to humans to H5N1 bird flu. Several fish species are becoming smaller, thanks to the selection pressure exerted by humans catching all the large fish. Weeds like Crepis sancta are adapting to cities by changing their seeds.

Deep time If Earth was very young, that would also be a problem for evolution, because evolution by natural selection requires vast stretches of time - "deep time" - as Darwin realised. Some thought evolution had been falsified in the 19th century, when physicist Lord Kelvin calculated that the Earth was just 30 million years old. That's far younger than Darwin's 300-million-year estimate, which Darwin based on how long it would have taken to erode a rock formation called the Weald in the UK. But both were wrong. Several lines of evidence, including lead isotopes, show that Earth is far older than even Darwin imagined: about 4 billion years.

Darwin also proposed that all life has descended from a common ancestor. This idea, originally based on studies of anatomy and development, is being confirmed by genome sequencing. All life on Earth has turned out to work in essentially the same way: organisms store and translate information using the same code, with only a few minor variations between the most primitive organisms. Huge chunks of this information are identical or differ only slightly even between species that appear very different. Some key developmental genes in the fly can be replaced by the mouse versions without any ill effect, for instance.

No foresight Had life been designed, though, even organisms that look similar could have turned out to have very different inner workings, just as an LCD screen has a quite different mechanism to a plasma screen. Human designers are already creating a range of new life forms whose molecular underpinnings will be very different from those of existing life forms.

Some argue that it would have made sense for a "designer" to make all species variations on the same theme, but wouldn't this apply only to a designer with limited resources or imagination? An all-powerful creator could have made a world in which every single species was entirely unique and unrelated to any other.

cont'd

Evol meme



To: Greg or e who wrote (27800)7/1/2012 11:14:36 AM
From: Solon1 Recommendation  Respond to of 69300
 
“It's not a lie.”

It is, and you have compounded it.

“You're the liar. You just need a platform for your drama queen hate crusade”

Again, you eschew argument in favour of a hostile attack. When will you stop personalising every post and start participating in adult discussion like a man??

“You're not defending anything, certainly not science.”

Your arguments are either personal attacks or simple denials of fact. That is proof that you are in quicksand. You think you are discrediting Science by attacking the individuals posting here rather than their strong and manly arguments (-g-). heh heh

“Evolution and science are not the same which is why many scientists dispute all or parts of Darwin's theory. That does not mean they are attacking science.”

You are wrong!

http://arnarb.harvard.edu/

Schools teach Evolution in high school Biology. Later it is taught in specialised Evolution Science Classes. Again your silly denials do not refute a true argument!

“this thread was created to hear ALL peoples views about evolution”

So what is your view, young man? Why don’t you stop with the personalization, the hate, the libel, and the weaselling long enough to give a polite opinion? You have been asked many times what you believe and why, but you always turtle up, take water, and snap out personal attacks as though you enjoy being pinned in your awkward little corner.

How about it? Try to make one post that sounds like there is an adult behind the keyboard, young man. Show that you can speak normally and act in community. We would ALL really appreciate that (and no more of this gratuitous, behind the back personal attacking. OK? You are spitting in SI’s face when you so egregiously violate simple requests to behave yourself).

Message 28238681



To: Greg or e who wrote (27800)7/1/2012 11:19:31 AM
From: Solon1 Recommendation  Respond to of 69300
 
"Evolution and science are not the same"

LOL! No. Evolution comes under the aegis of Science. It is one of the Sciences gtaught in most schools (perhaps not private religious schools) and all Universities.

Do you still wish to discredit Science?

don-lindsay-archive.org

Philosophers of science such as Popper and Kitcher say that it is. Scientists such as Mayr, Dobzhansky, and Ridley agree. Many organizations have passed resolutions to this effect. However, the important question is whether these authorities can back up what they say with evidence.

The following list gives a few of the predictions that have been made from the Theory of Evolution:

Darwin predicted that precursors to the trilobite would be found in pre-Silurian rocks. He was correct: they were subsequently found.

Similarly, Darwin predicted that Precambrian fossils would be found. He wrote in 1859 that the total absence of fossils in Precambrian rock was "inexplicable" and that the lack might "be truly urged as a valid argument" against his theory. When such fossils were found, starting in 1953, it turned out that they had been abundant all along. They were just so small that it took a microscope to see them.

There are two kinds of whales: those with teeth, and those that strain microscopic food out of seawater with baleen. It was predicted that a transitional whale must have once existed, which had both teeth and baleen. Such a fossil has since been found.

Evolution predicts that we will find fossil series.

Evolution predicts that the fossil record will show different populations of creatures at different times. For example, it predicts we will never find fossils of trilobites with fossils of dinosaurs, since their geological time-lines don't overlap. The "Cretaceous seaway" deposits in Colorado and Wyoming contain almost 90 different kinds of ammonites, but no one has ever found two different kinds of ammonite together in the same rockbed. This lack of mixing stongly implies that the rockbeds have different ages.

Evolution predicts that animals on distant islands will appear closely related to animals on the closest mainland, and that the older and more distant the island, the more distant the relationship.

The theory of Common Descent predicts that the species alive today can be organized into one single family tree, where each species is a descendant of a parent species. (And therefore, there should be a hierarchical arrangement of relatedness.)
For example, arthropods all have chitinous exoskeleton, hemocoel, and jointed legs. Insects have all these plus head-thorax-abdomen body plan and 6 legs. Flies have all that plus two wings and halteres. Calypterate flies have all that plus a certain style of antennae, wing veins, and sutures on the face and back. You will never find the distinguishing features of calypterate flies on a non-fly, much less on a non-insect or non-arthropod.

Dogs are another example. There should be species we would group with dogs, and there are - such as wolves and coyotes. So we are not surprised when dogs and foxes turn out to share some peculiar features of the middle ear. This group - the Family Canidae - can be grouped with the bears, raccoons and weasels, because their ears have some similarities to those of dogs. All of these have carnassial teeth, but so do cats, civets and seals - so we group the entire lot as being Order Carnivora. Carnivores all have 3 middle ear bones, mammary glands, placental development, hair, a diaphragm, a four-chambered heart, and a larynx. But they share those features with humans, bats, elephants and whales. So we group that entire lot as being Class Mammalia. But mammals have amniote eggs, and so do birds, lizards, snakes and turtles. And amniote animals share with frogs and salamanders the property of having four legs - they're tetrapods. Tetrapods and fish both have backbones - they're vertebrates. Vertebrates and starfish are both deuterostomes because they share the way their embryos develop a mouth. Deuterostomes are left-right symmetric, so we group them and insects and snails as bilateral. The bilaterals, the jellyfish and sponges are all animals. Animals, fungi, rose bushes and amoebas all have a nucleus inside each cell - they're eukaryotes. Eukaryotes and bacteria and archaea share the DNA mechanism, lipid-based cell membranes, and hundreds of other biochemical details.

(And that's the short version of the story! For all the fancy Latin names, see the Tree of Life.)

Notice that the dog-to-bacteria story has some apparent irregularities. For example, I said that elephants and whales are mammals, and that mammals have hair. It is not obvious, but elephants and whales do have a small amount of hair. Also, scientists group whales and snakes as tetrapods. So where are their four legs? From the theory of Common Descent, we see that they must be descended from four-legged creatures, and that they have lost their legs. (Loss is an easy mutation - as witness hairless dogs.) So, we predict that there should be fossils of whales with legs, and snakes with legs. These fossils have been found. Similarly, starfish outwardly have radial symmetry, but we classified them as bilateral. So Common Descent predicts that their group (echinoderms) had bilateral ancestors, and such a fossil has been found.

Another prediction from Common Descent is that there will be species that are highly similar, so that they are fairly obviously a group. And, when we talk about groups of groups, we will see one notch less similarity. For example, we group the tree species that give oranges, mandarins, lemons, limes, tangelos, lemonades (a rounded fruit that's sweet like lemonade) and grapefruits. They're called citrus trees. We also group the stone fruit trees - those are the ones with peaches, apricots, plums, nectarines, peachcots (a cross between peaches and apricots) or peacherines. Gardeners can graft a branch from an orange tree onto a lemon tree, and get it to grow, so that they then have a tree that grows both oranges and lemons. Gardeners can mix any two citrus trees, and they can mix apple varieties, or pear varieties. But apples and peaches don't mix.

Evolution predicts that simple, valuable features will evolve more than once. They will evolve in several species, quite independently of each other (because there has been time for that to happen). And, independent lines of evolution will most likely have differences not relevant to function. For example, the eyes of molluscs, arthropods, and vertebrates are extremely different, and ears can appear on any of at least ten different locations on different insects.

In 1837, a Creationist reported that during a pig's fetal development, part of the incipient jawbone detaches and becomes the little bones of the middle ear. After Evolution was discovered, it was predicted that there would be a transitional fossil, of a reptile with a spare jaw joint right near its ear. A whole series of such fossils has since been found - the cynodont therapsids.

It was predicted that humans must have an intermaxillary bone, since other mammals do. The adult human skull consists of bones that have fused together, so you can't tell one way or the other in an adult. An examination of human embryonic development showed that an intermaxillary bone is one of the things that fuses to become your upper jaw.

From my junk DNA example I predict that three specific DNA patterns will be found at 9 specific places in the genome of white-tailed deer, but none of the three patterns will be found anywhere in the spider monkey genome.

In 1861, the first Archaeopteryx fossil was found. It was clearly a primitive bird with reptilian features. But, the fossil's head was very badly preserved. In 1872 Ichthyornis and Hesperornis were found. Both were clearly seabirds, but to everyone's astonishment, both had teeth. It was predicted that if we found a better-preserved Archaeopteryx, it too would have teeth. In 1877, a second Archaeopteryx was found, and the prediction turned out to be correct.

Almost all animals make Vitamin C inside their bodies. It was predicted that humans are descended from creatures that could do this, and that we had lost this ability. (There was a loss-of-function mutation, which didn't matter because our high-fruit diet was rich in Vitamin C.) When human DNA was studied, scientists found a gene which is just like the Vitamin C gene in dogs and cats. However, our copy has been turned off.

In "The Origin Of Species" (1859), Darwin said:
"If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection."
Chapter VI, Difficulties Of The Theory
This challenge has not been met. In the ensuing 140 years, no such thing has been found. Plants give away nectar and fruit, but they get something in return. Taking care of other members of one's own species (kin selection) doesn't count, so ants and bees (and mammalian milk) don't count.

Darwin pointed out that the Madagascar Star orchid has a spur 30 centimeters (about a foot) long, with a puddle of nectar at the bottom. Now, evolution says that nectar isn't free. Creatures that drink it pay for it, by carrying pollen away to another orchid. For that to happen, the creature must rub against the top of the spur. So, Darwin concluded that the spur had evolved its length as an arms race. Some creature had a way to reach deeply without shoving itself hard against the pollen-producing parts. Orchids with longer spurs would be more likely to spread their pollen, so Darwin's gradualistic scenario applied. The spur would evolve to be longer and longer. From the huge size, the creature must have evolved in return, reaching deeper and deeper. So, he predicted in 1862 that Madagascar has a species of hawkmoth with a tongue just slightly shorter than 30 cm.
The creature that pollinated that orchid was not learned until 1902, forty years later. It was indeed a moth, and it had a 25 cm tongue. And in 1988 it was proven that moth-pollinated short-spurred orchids did set less seed than long ones.

A thousand years ago, just about every remote island on the planet had a species of flightless bird. Evolution explains this by saying that flying creatures are particularly able to establish themselves on remote islands. Some birds, living in a safe place where there is no need to make sudden escapes, will take the opportunity to give up on flying. Hence, Evolution predicts that each flightless bird species arose on the island that it was found on. So, Evolution predicts that no two islands would have the same species of flightless bird. Now that all the world's islands have been visited, we know that this was a correct prediction.

The "same" protein in two related species is usually slightly different. A protein is made from a sequence of amino acids, and the two species have slightly different sequences. We can measure the sequences of many species, and cladistics has a mathematical procedure which tells us if these many sequences imply one common ancestral sequence. Evolution predicts that these species are all descended from a common ancestral species, and that the ancestral species used the ancestral sequence.
This has been done for pancreatic ribonuclease in ruminants. (Cows, sheep, goats, deer and giraffes are ruminants.) Measurements were made on various ruminants. An ancestral sequence was computed, and protein molecules with that sequence were manufactured. When sequences are chosen at random, we usually wind up with a useless goo. However, the manufactured molecules were biologically active substances. Furthermore, they did exactly what a pancreatic ribonuclease is supposed to do - namely, digest ribonucleic acids.

An animal's bones contain oxygen atoms from the water it drank while growing. And, fresh water and salt water can be told apart by their slightly different mixture of oxygen isotopes. (This is because fresh water comes from water that evaporated out of the ocean. Lighter atoms evaporate more easily than heavy ones do, so fresh water has fewer of the heavy atoms.)
Therefore, it should be possible to analyze an aquatic creature's bones, and tell whether it grew up in fresh water or in the ocean. This has been done, and it worked. We can distinguish the bones of river dolphins from the bones of killer whales.

Now for the prediction. We have fossils of various early whales. Since whales are mammals, evolution predicts that they evolved from land animals. And, the very earliest of those whales would have lived in fresh water, while they were evolving their aquatic skills. (Skills such as the ability to do without fresh water.) Therefore, the oxygen isotope ratios in their fossils should be like the isotope ratios in modern river dolphins.

It's been measured, and the prediction was correct. The two oldest species in the fossil record - Pakicetus and Ambulocetus - lived in fresh water. Rodhocetus, Basilosaurus and the others all lived in salt water.

The point is not that these prove evolution right. The point is that these were predictions that could have turned out to be wrong predictions. So, the people who made the predictions were doing science. The Theory of Evolution was also useful, in the sense that it suggested what evidence to look for, and where.