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To: RMF who wrote (1752)	2/6/2013 2:30:24 AM
From: Greg or e	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 2133

"When you say, "the church included them in her canon because she already regarded them as divinely inspired", you're just saying that a bunch of PEOPLE did that on their OWN, right?" Well the quote comes from FF Bruce who was a renowned and respected biblical scholar. In the first place the Roman Catholic Church didn't exist as we see it today. James White makes this excellent point in his article What Really Happened at Nicea? http://www.equip.org/articles/what-really-happened-at-nicea/ where he notes: While later Roman bishops would claim such authority, resulting in the development of the papacy, at this time no Christian looked to one individual, or church, as the final authority. This is important because often we hear it alleged that the Trinity, or the Nicene definition of the deity of Christ, is a “Roman Catholic” concept “forced” on the church by the pope. The simple fact of the matter is, when the bishops gathered at Nicea they did not acknowledge the bishop of Rome as anything more than the leader of the most influential church in the West.21 FF Bruce was a Protestant so when he refers to the Church as "she" he is referring to the body of Christ which is the universal (Catholic) Church. Not the Church of Rome. "When did Judaism begin? That would be the first recognition of your god, right?" No, actually Judaism begins with Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

To: RMF who wrote (1752)	2/6/2013 10:49:27 AM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 2133

"When did Judaism begin?" Most of the world (of course) is non jewish. The family known as jews equate their beginnings to the time of Abraham (around 1900 BCE) with whom Yahweh made a covenant setting Abraham as the Father of Judaism and promising Cannan to his descendants. The 12 tribes come from Jacob (Israel) out of Isaac. However, some specify the covenant between Yahweh and the children of Israel (as Jews see the revelation to Moses in 1029 BCE) as the start of Judaism. Interestingly, 42% (some say as high as 80%)--of Israeli Jews define themselves as "Secular"! So they are mostly over it... :-) en.wikipedia.org