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Politics : Evolution -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Brumar89 who wrote (37408)6/13/2013 7:40:21 PM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
You're confused old man , there are no militant atheists, there are those that just don't care about religion per se who draw motivation & strength from reason, who pay attention to all the newest data. Someone has to monitor all the misquoting & dishonest referencing by people such as yourself & counterparts . Its very easy to find any number of talks & discussions refuting the bunk of Behe, in fact Dr Francis Collins already clearly has done so.

You were shown that Collins video but too dishonest to admit the world's reknowned geneticist admits that Behe is bunk.



To: Brumar89 who wrote (37408)6/13/2013 7:50:51 PM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
Lastly, you don't find these "militant atheists" blowing up market places with bombs strapped to their bodies? You can prattle all you want , truth of the matter is we do find religous fanatics doing this all the time



To: Brumar89 who wrote (37408)6/14/2013 5:28:01 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
Irreducible Complexity Demystified by Pete Dunkelberg
[Posted: 26 April 2003]
"Evolution is cleverer than you are."
-biologists' proverb
Introduction
The Argument That Irreducible Complexity Cannot Evolve
How Might Irreducible Complexity Evolve?
Irreducible Complexity in Nature
Venus' Flytrap
How to Eat Pentachlorophenol
Hemoglobin for the Active Life
The Blood Clotting System: is it IC?
Swimming Systems
The Eukaryote Cilium
The Archaeal Flagellum
The Bacterial Flagellum
IC Cores
How Does Irreducible Complexity Get Its Charm?
IC, ID, and Creationism
Conclusions
References
Introduction
new term, irreducibly complex, (IC) has been introduced into public discussions of evolution. The term was defined by Michael Behe in 1996 in his book Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution ( 1). Irreducible complexity (also denoted IC) has gained prominence as the evidence for the intelligent design (ID) movement, which argues that life is so complicated that it must be the work of an intelligent designer (aka God) rather than the result of evolution. As you may have heard, the ID movement wants this taught in public schools as a new scientific theory. This essay will, I hope, prove helpful to any school teachers, boards of education, legislators and members of the press who may be wondering about it.

The argument from IC to ID is simply:

  1. IC things cannot evolve
  2. If it can't have evolved it must have been designed
This article just looks at the first part, the argument that irreducibly complex systems cannot be produced by evolution, either because they just can't evolve, or because their evolution is so improbable that the possibility can be ignored.

Let's take a look at the definition of IC, and then see if we can figure out its relation to evolution, and why scientists are so unimpressed. Here is the definition, from page 39 (page numbers refer to Darwin's Black Box unless otherwise noted):

"By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning." [emphasis in original]
IC is now a single defined term. The new definition, not the ordinary meaning of the words, is now our guide. IC refers to an organism doing something (the function) in such a way that the system (that portion of the organism that directly performs the function) has no more parts than are strictly necessary.

How do we decide when the term IC applies? Organisms don't come with parts, functions and systems labeled, nor are 'part', 'system' and 'function' technical terms in biology. They are terms of convenience. We might say, for instance, that the function of a leg is to walk, and call legs walking systems. But what are the parts? If we divide a leg into three major parts, removal of any part results in loss of the function. Thus legs are IC. On the other hand, if we count each bone as a part then several parts, even a whole toe, may be removed and we still have a walking system. We will see later that Behe's treatment of cilia and flagella follows this pattern.

What about the boundary of the system? This too is up to us. Take the digestive system for example. We may be interested only in the action of acids and enzymes in the stomach, or we may include saliva and chewing, or the lower intestine where some extraction of water and nutrients continues.

As a mental exercise, try before reading on to formulate an argument to prove that IC systems cannot evolve. IC is supposed to be the biochemical challenge to evolution, and thus the case when the parts are molecules, usually proteins, is the important case. So of course there may be multiple copies of a part. Losing a part means losing all copies of it, or at least so many that the function is effectively lost.

The Argument That Irreducible Complexity Cannot Evolve Behe's argument that IC cannot evolve is central to ID, so it deserves our attention. His method is to divide evolution into what he calls 'direct', which he defines in a special way, and 'indirect' (everything else). He finds that direct evolution of IC is logically impossible, and indirect evolution of IC is too improbable. The argument against 'direct' evolution of IC is contained in this long sentence right after the definition:

"An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly
(that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism)
by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system
because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional."
The last part of the sentence, "...because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional." is why we should agree to the rest of the sentence. There are some problems:

  • The first part of the sentence refers to slight changes. Removing a whole part is a major change;
    this is a major 'disconnect' between the parts of Behe's argument.
  • It is not true that a precursor missing a part must be nonfunctional. It need only lack the function we specified. Even a single protein does something.
  • The actual precursor may have had more parts, not fewer.
  • If the individual parts evolve, the precursor may have had the same number of parts, not yet codependent. We will learn more about this possibility shortly.
How can one construct a valid argument that IC cannot be produced directly? ID proponents have not found a way. Yet it's easy (and left as an exercise for the reader) once you realize that a valid argument from definitions requires carefully defining the terms so that the argument becomes a tautology. This may be accomplished by redefining 'direct' or 'IC', or (best, I think) by defining Behe's expression 'be produced' which he uses in place of 'evolve'.

A precursor to IC lacking a part can have any functions except the specified one, which brings us to 'indirect' evolution. Consider a cow's tail. So far as I know, the main thing a cow uses its tail for is to swat flies. Did tails originally evolve for this function? Hardly. There were tails before there were flies. Long ago, tails helped early chordates to swim. Going back still farther, some very early animals started to have two distinct ends; one end for food intake (with sense organs for locating food) and the other end for excretions. As a consequence, this back end, and muscular extensions of it, could also be used to help the animal move. This illustrates yet another important facet of evolution: not only single mutations, but even large organs may begin more or less accidentally. It also illustrates that biological functions evolve. Indeed organisms and ecosystems evolve. It may not even make sense to expect a precursor to have had the same function.

The long term evolution of most features of life has not been what Behe, or indeed most people, would call direct. And even short term evolution can be indirect in Behe's terms. So it is surprising to read, on page 40, Behe's argument against indirect evolution of IC systems. Here is the crux of it:

"Even if a system is irreducibly complex (and thus cannot have been produced directly), however, one can not definitely rule out the possibility of an indirect, circuitous route. As the complexity of an interacting system increases, though, the likelihood of such an indirect route drops precipitously." (page 40)
He simply asserts that evolution of irreducible complexity by an indirect route is so improbable as to be virtually out of the question, except in simple cases. He makes no special connection between indirect evolution and IC. He offers no evidence. He just asserts that it is too improbable.

Actually, a more complex system probably has a long evolutionary history. Since evolution does not aim at anything in advance, the longer the history, the more circuitous it may be. And his very limited meaning of 'direct' renders much indirect that is not circuitous at all. Yet he insists:

"An irreducibly complex biological system, if there is such a thing, would be a powerful challenge to Darwinian evolution." (page 39)
Here's another exercise: before reading on, try to think of ways that IC systems, including biochemical ones, might evolve after all.

How Might Irreducible Complexity Evolve? How might an IC system evolve? One possibility is that in the past, the function may have been done with more parts than are strictly necessary. Then an 'extra' part may be lost, leaving an IC system. Or the parts may become co-adapted to perform even better, but become unable to perform the specified function at all without each other. This brings up another point: the parts themselves evolve. Behe's parts are usually whole proteins or even larger. A protein is made up of hundreds of smaller parts called amino acids, of which twenty different kinds may be used. Evolution usually changes these one by one. Another important fact is that DNA evolves. What difference does this make, compared to saying that proteins evolve? If you think about it, each protein that your body makes is made at just the right time, in just the right place and in just the right amount. These details are also coded in your DNA (with timing and quantity susceptible to outside influences) and so are subject to mutation and evolution. For our purposes we can refer to this as deployment of parts. When a protein is deployed out of its usual context, it may be co-opted for a different function. A fourth noteworthy possibility is that brand new parts are created. This typically comes from gene duplication, which is well known in biology. At first the duplicate genes make the same protein, but these genes may evolve to make slightly different proteins that depend on each other.

We can summarize these four possibilities this way:

  • Previously using more parts than necessary for the function.
  • The parts themselves evolve.
  • Deployment of parts (gene regulation) evolves.
  • New parts are created (gene duplication) and may then evolve.
The first of these only comes up if we are looking for IC. The others are the major forms of molecular evolution observed by biologists, phrased in terms of parts. They can lead to new protein functions, sometimes slowly and sometimes, especially when parts are redeployed, abruptly. Gene duplication and changes in protein deployment may introduce a new protein 'part' into a system. Then the parts may coevolve to do something better, but in a codependent manner so that all are required, without further change in the number of parts. But what happens in nature?



To: Brumar89 who wrote (37408)6/14/2013 5:29:09 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
Irreducible Complexity in Nature Can evolution lead to IC or not? It is time to look at living examples and let nature decide. Behe's most famous example is a mousetrap. But since a mousetrap is not alive, it doesn't tell us much about whether or how living IC systems might evolve. How about a flytrap instead?

Venus' Flytrap

The Venus' flytrap, Dionaea muscipula, is a small flowering plant which grows naturally in acidic wetlands in North and South Carolina. It has a ferocious looking tooth-edged trap for unwary creatures. It traps and digests insects to make up for the lack of nitrogen in the soils of its habitat.

Here's how the trap works. When an insect brushes against the trigger hairs in the center, the lobes snap most of the way shut with surprising speed. If a small insect is caught, it may escape between the teeth, and then the trap reopens without fully closing. If a good sized bug is caught it is digested over the next few days as the trap closes the rest of the way. Then the trap reopens. A trap can only be fully closed about 4 times, so it must be used sparingly.

Do we have an IC system here? We must specify a function and all the parts needed to carry it out (and no extra parts). The function of interest is trapping insects for food in a manner that brings the plant more benefit than the cost of the trap. The parts are the two lobes, the hinge between the lobes (the midrib of the leaf, which anchors the lobes), the trigger hairs, and spines projecting from the edges of the lobes that make a set of bars as the trap closes. The system is just all these parts, and the trap needs all its parts in order to work. Hence it is an IC system.

How might this trap have evolved? I say 'might' have because Venus' flytraps haven't left any fossils that I know of, except a few grains of pollen. Are there any related plants that might provide a clue? Let's look at the well known sundews (Drosera). Sundews trap insects using flypaper traps, slowly closing around insects that get stuck. Darwin, whose book Insectivorous Plants ( 2) is now available online, made careful observations of these remarkable plants, especially the round leaf sundew D. rotundifolia. As Darwin notes,

If a small organic or inorganic object be placed on the glands in the centre of a leaf, these transmit a motor impulse to the marginal tentacles. The nearer ones are first affected and slowly bend towards the centre, and then those farther off, until at last all become closely inflected over the object. This takes place in from one hour to four or five or more hours. [...] Not only the tentacles, but the blade of the leaf often, but by no means always, becomes much incurved, when any strongly exciting substance or fluid is placed on the disc. Drops of milk and of a solution of nitrate of ammonia or soda are particularly apt to produce this effect. The blade is thus converted into a little cup. The manner in which it bends varies greatly. ( 2, pp 9, 12)


Here is D. rotundifolia with a fly; Makoto Honda ( 3) shows the action with a faster species, D. intermedia. Recent genetic research confirms that Venus's flytrap and the waterwheel plant Aldrovanda are related and are in the sundew family Droseraceae, and that snap-traps very likely evolved from flypaper traps ( 4) as Darwin thought:
CONCLUDING REMARKS ON THE DROSERACEAE.

The six known genera composing this family have now been described in relation to our present subject, as far as my means have permitted. They all capture insects. This is effected by Drosophyllum, Roridula, and Byblis, solely by the viscid fluid secreted from their glands; by Drosera, through the same means, together with the movements of the tentacles; by Dionaea and Aldrovanda, through the closing of the blades of the leaf. In these two last genera rapid movement makes up for the loss of viscid secretion. [...] The parent form of Dionaea and Aldrovanda seems to have been closely allied to Drosera, and to have had rounded leaves, supported on distinct footstalks, and furnished with tentacles all round the circumference, with other tentacles and sessile glands on the upper surface. ( 2, pp 355-6, 360).


How did the Venus' flytrap avoid the argument that IC can't evolve? In two ways. First, rather than gaining a part, it lost a part - the glue that the sundews use. Even more interestingly, the trap was able to evolve because the parts evolved. The trap started out as a Drosera-like leaf, and the parts of the leaf were progressively changed. This makes a striking contrast with the mousetrap which Behe has repeatedly presented to illustrate why IC cannot evolve. As a manufactured item the mousetrap neatly illustrates his definition, but with its static parts it cannot model evolution. With evolving parts, nature can create a snap-trap after all. The mechanical and manufacturing analogies so influential in Behe's thinking miss the flexibility of living things.



To: Brumar89 who wrote (37408)6/14/2013 5:33:52 AM
From: 2MAR$1 Recommendation

Recommended By
Solon

  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
Blood clotting: Under questioning at a recent meeting ( 16) Dr. Behe finally agreed that the cascade is not Irreducible Complexity after all. Indeed, Acton gives reasons why he never should have thought so ( 14). (As far as I know, Behe has not 'done his homework' on any of his examples except the mousetrap

* Another admission by Behe that one of his main points turns out he was really lying & FOS providing fodder for misrepresenting fools like you ?

This is why the average American Science scores are so abominably low, because instead encouraging &
designing strong minds that are able to discern fine differences & discriminate true data , we encourage easy comic book caricatures of the real stage life processes that aren't the comfortable or calculated mythologies that have no real substance or base in reality.



To: Brumar89 who wrote (37408)6/14/2013 6:10:23 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
How Does Irreducible Complexity Get Its Charm Since It Has No Basis in Science?
talkdesign.org

"Evolution is cleverer than you are."
-biologists' proverb

Evolution doesn't even notice whether a combination of parts, system and function chosen by an observer happens to satisfy a definition in a book. It just doesn't matter. This is in a nutshell what scientists have been saying since Darwin's Black Box was published ( 44). Yet the book has been very influential with the public (see for instance the 370 or so reviews at amazon.com ( 45)). And it provides the one seemingly scientific reason to teach ID in public school science classes.

How can the book's success with laymen be explained? First, it appears that evolution is hardly taught in the US. Basic knowledge such as the four modes of evolutionary change given at the beginning of this essay would show a reader that evolution is much too flexible for IC to be an issue. Biological basics and careful reading would enable one to see that Behe's theoretical argument that IC can't evolve is unsound.

Without a good basic understanding of biology, a tricky ambiguity sets in.

First, there is the definition of IC. Then comes the apparent proof that it cannot evolve. After that, 'unevolvable' is casually used as the meaning of IC. To complete the picture, the subtext all along is that IC is impressively complicated. Thus one's attention is directed away from simple cases which directly show how basic modes of evolutionary change may lead to IC. The definition is used to argue that IC exists, and the other two meanings seal the conviction that IC systems are very unnatural indeed. It is a case of using words which seem to mean what some people want them to mean, but on closer examination don't. This results in the reader losing sight of the fact that none of Behe's examples are in fact IC in biochemical terms, and of the fact that IC doesn't matter for evolution in any case, so that there actually is no 'biochemical challenge to evolution' at all.

meme



To: Brumar89 who wrote (37408)6/14/2013 7:24:13 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 69300
 
And if it is your premise to believe that there's a Mind , a higher intelligence behind all that exists in the universe, then you have completely opened the doors to everyone who has a mind being part of the story, there cannot be any atheists then, since all who possess a mind will be part of that greater mind. This idea of bioLogos or Universal Mind is Greek thinking in origin anyways, so you are espousing pagan theology/philosophy in any case.

If you make Jesus a qualifier , the best he said on the Sermon on the Mount was the Golden Rule, sorry Elmer, i for one figured that out when still a young child before any priest got hold of me. Had something to do with good sound ranchers influences, wise old grandmothers, fathers & men who brought back the lessons of war & secular teachers that also reinforced one of mankind's most universal wisdoms of mutual treatment & human caring.

I did not need "Gods Word" to learn that one simplest & greatest of inherent wisdom.