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To: 2MAR$ who wrote (39718)7/28/2013 7:32:28 PM
From: Brumar89  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 69300
 
You're revealing you don't know anything about biochemistry. The genetic code that's been decoded contains specific coded instructions about which amino acid to use in which order to build proteins. The coded information exists in the form of codons, consisting of three adjacent nucleic acid bases. Each combination of three bases, or codon, specifies a particular amino acid. There are also start and stop codons. Strands of RNA are run through a nanomachine called a ribosome just like tape is fed through tape reader. Except that this tape reader reads the instructions and builds a unique protein. There are thousands of unique proteins used in living things and they have up to several thousand amino acids in each. The specific sequence of amino acids is what differentiates one protein from another. That sequence needs to be exact or the protein won't fold property and won't function as its supposed to do. For example, there are 574 amino acids that make up hemoglobin. A mutation that gets only one of these wrong is what causes hemophilia.

The reading of the genetic code isn't merely a chemical reaction like oxidation. There's no reason a particular codon has to designate a particular amino acid. For example, there are some variant codes used in various living things (25 of these identified so far) which read one or more particular codon differently than is "normal". And these variants are scattered around the so-called "tree of life" in clearly unrelated organisms. These variants aren't totally different from the main code, the differences are minor BUT there is no known way how a code could change or evolve without rendering the organism unviable. That any such evolution would have to have happened convergently for some variants is another problem. The odds are insurmountable.

Though the genetic code is complex and organized, it's not JUST complex and organized. It is a true symbolic CODE, like a computer language or Morse code or naval semaphore codes ... or for that matter like human languages.

And btw, there are very likely different codes other than the one we have decoded. The genetic code we've decoded is likely a subdirectory containg recipes on how to build the proteins the living things needs. Other codes would govern when and how the subdirectory is accessed.

-------

What Bleeping Codes Say About Intelligent Design

by Richard W. Stevens

I first saw Gandalf in 1974. No, not the wizard of The Lord of the Rings. This Gandalf was the colorful box attached to a PDP 11-40 computer, its lights blinking almost rhythmically amid a tangle of wires in the slightly dusty lab office. It had a label in faux Olde English lettering with that whimsical brand name.

What was this device named Gandalf? It was a modem, an electronic machine that translates information from one symbolic form to another. A modem is a device that modulates (encodes) and demodulates (decodes). Modems allow computers to communicate with one another over telephone lines, cable connections, or wireless links.

The 1974 Gandalf modem converted digital data into tones to send over a telephone line, and also converted tone codes coming in via that line back into digital data. If your personal computer or e-phone connects via WiFi, then there are two modems involved to convey data over that connection.

In short, a modem is an encoder–decoder device. With a wink to J. R. R. Tolkien, let's call any device that receives information, encodes it into symbols, and can receive the same kinds of symbols and convert them into information, a Gandalf system. And let's consider this idea: the existence of a Gandalf system gives strong evidence of intelligent design.

"Houston, Captain Midnight Got Here First"

Imagine that astronauts have landed on Mars and discovered there a smooth, concrete-like pyramid, with letters engraved on its surface in two columns. The left-hand column displayed letters from the Roman alphabet, and the right-hand column displayed the corresponding letters from the Greek alphabet.

Surely such a discovery would have electrified the astronauts, and they would immediately report back to earth the exciting news that they had found clear evidence of intelligent life on Mars. And let's say that they also discovered a Captain Midnight (Ovaltine) Secret Decoder Badge, the kind used by American kids in the 1950s. Then the astronauts would report the even more astonishing news that the intrepid Captain Midnight had visited the Red Planet before them.

Either way, whether the astronauts dug up a Roman-Greek letter conversion chart or a secret decoder ring on Mars, their instincts would shout: "Intelligence found!" In fact, if a Gandalf system were discovered there, the whole world would trumpet the proof that intelligent life existed on Mars.

How could finding one Gandalf system command that unshakeable conclusion? The answer seems obvious: no undirected material forces are known that can (1) create a code, and (2) create the corresponding encoder and decoder devices. With all the scientific knowledge we command, we cannot conceive of a purposeless, undirected mechanism that can design a code and assemble the coding devices. Gandalf systems simply do not occur naturally among the non-living, non-intelligent elements of the universe.

Wizards See the Future

If Gandalf systems do not arise from undirected non-living forces, then how do they come to exist? Well, first, in order to make a Gandalf system, you need to know the code. That means, at minimum, you must know:

• The symbols that represent the incoming information;
• The outgoing symbols that correspond to the incoming symbols; and
• The techniques for receiving and sending the symbols (e.g., printed letters, audio sounds, light flashes, radio signals)

Knowing the code means recognizing that one symbol equates to another. For example, if you know Morse code, then you know that "• • •" equates to "S," and "– – –" equates to "O." Thus, if you hear "• • • – – – • • •," then you recognize "SOS," the international distress signal that regrettably did not work out so well for the Titanic.

To decode a coded message, you must know the code in advance. Before you can understand "• • • – – – • • •," you must know the Morse code for the two letters.

Knowledge of the code underlies a Gandalf system's magic: expecting the future. In building a Gandalf system, the designer implicitly expects two realities:

1. That the device will actually receive information to encode; and
2. That some other device somewhere will be waiting to receive the coded message that the Gandalf system sends out.

Every Gandalf system is set up to carry out its functions as soon as certain foreseen events occur. Gandalf #1 stands ready to receive a message in a predefined format from its host computer, and when it does, it will encode the message for transmission to Gandalf #2. When it sends its message, Gandalf #1 uses a particular outgoing code only because its designer foresaw a future reality wherein Gandalf #2 would receive and decode its symbols.

Gandalf Contra Darwin

Dressed as neo-Darwinism, secular humanism, or resurgent atheism, the "scientific" contender in the worldview wars is materialism (aka naturalism). Materialism declares that the entire universe operates by physical laws of energy and matter alone. If intelligence exists at all, it has resulted from a combination of purely impersonal, undirected, purposeless material forces.

Consider the implications of this. If a Thoughtless Thing is impersonal, undirected, and purposeless, then the Thing does not know or even care about future events. Therefore, that Thoughtless Thing cannot and does not plan for future conditions. It does not foresee its own future nor the future or even the existence of any other thing.

Such a Thoughtless Thing cannot and will not create a code, let alone an encoder–decoder device. Why not? Because to encode a message now presumes the belief that the message might be decoded later—in the future. Similarly, to build a decoder device today presumes the belief that a coded message will arrive in the future. Yet a Thoughtless Thing cannot and does not imagine any future event.

No Thoughtless Thing—no impersonal, undirected, purposeless material force—can create a Gandalf system. Neo-Darwinism's mechanisms, undirected mutation and natural selection, are Thoughtless Things. Therefore, neo-Darwinism's mechanisms cannot create a Gandalf system.

No Gandalf, No Cell

The prevailing, science-based worldview says that neo-Darwinian mechanisms produced all life on earth. On earth we notice that animals and plants are composed of cells. Their cells operate with DNA and RNA systems that both encode and decode information about building proteins. Encoder–decoder systems in cells—those are Gandalf systems.

But neo-Darwinian mechanisms cannot be the source of the cells' Gandalf systems because:

1. No known undirected material forces can produce codes with their matching encoder–decoder devices; and
2. Undirected material forces are logically incapable of creating codes and coding devices.

Chemistry and physics lack the tools to create Gandalf systems. As Dr. Hubert Yockey wrote in a 1981 article in the Journal of Theoretical Biology, "Nothing which even vaguely resembles a code exists in the physio-chemical world."

Cells Compare to Computers?

Does this Gandalf system analogy apply to systems other than computers? While this article cannot explore that entire topic, the Modest Physical Church-Turing Thesis, a thesis widely believed by philosophers of science, may be worth mentioning. (What would it be called if it were not so modest?) Gualtiero Piccinini provides a thorough discussion of this thesis in a July 2010 article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (online), but in simplified lay terms, it says that, if you can specify a usable translation process (a function) with a defined set of rules for converting from one set of symbols to another, then you can perform that translation using a Turing machine.

Why is the "Turing machine" important here? Because a Turing machine is defined as an extremely simple computer that itself uses a Gandalf system (encoder–decoder) to operate. That universal model of computing, the Turing machine, requires a Gandalf system.

The Turing machine conceptual model is theoretically capable of modeling any step-by-step physical process or procedure—that is, any algorithm—in the universe. Increasingly, scientists are realizing that biological systems are essentially machines executing algorithms. Executing an algorithm, as with the Turing machine, requires a Gandalf system for encoding and decoding information.

Computer scientist Corrado Priami, in a 2009 article, "Algorithmic Systems Biology," describes the logical connection between biological systems (like the cell) and computer-like functions: "The underlying metaphor is one that (1) represents biological entities as programs being executed simultaneously and that (2) represents the interactions of two entities by the exchange of messages between the programs."

Priami observed "the need for a deeper involvement of computer science in biology and the need of an algorithmic description of life." In making the connection between biology and algorithms, Priami recognizes the necessary encoder–decoder processes involved in both.

In his book Signature in the Cell, Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, a philosopher of science, shows that the "cell's information-processing system" operates using the same key elements of computer-based information processing systems, including mechanisms for digitally storing, encoding, decoding, and executing instructions for operation. In a 2000 article for the journal Computers and Chemistry, Dr. Yockey confirmed: "The genetic code is constructed to confront and solve the problems of communication and recording by the same principles found . . . in modern communication and computer codes."

Nobody would treat the finding of a Gandalf system on Mars as ho-hum. Such a discovery would signal the presence of an intelligent being on that planet who built the encoder–decoder device and specified the codes. Trillions of biological cells on earth, operating as they do with codes and coding devices mimicking computer science equivalents, likewise provide evidence of intelligent design. Now comes the real challenge: finding that designer. •

Sources Consulted
• Stephen C. Meyer, Signature in the Cell: DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design, pp. 367–368 (Harper Collins, 2009).
• Gualtiero Piccinini, Computation in Physical Systems, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (July 2010), plato.stanford.edu
• Corrado Priami, "Algorithmic Systems Biology," Communications of the ACM, 52:5, pp. 80–88 (May 2009).
• Hubert P. Yockey, "Origin of Life on Earth and Shannon's Theory of Communication," Computers and Chemistry 24:105–123 (2000).
• Hubert P. Yockey, "Self Organization Origin of Life Scenarios and Information Theory," Journal of Theoretical Biology 91:13–31 (1981).

salvomag.com

-----------------
Software: Such Is Life

Evolution News & Views July 17, 2012

"What is life?" That's a question Erwin Schrödinger tried to answer in an influential lecture at Trinity College, Dublin, in 1943. Last week the same question was addressed to pioneering synthetic geneticist Craig Venter (pictured) on the same stage, with the benefit of six decades of progress in genetics since Watson and Crick unveiled the structure of DNA in 1951. Watson was present at the lecture, according to Claire O'Connell, who reported on the event for New Scientist. So, what is life from the perspective of a genetic engineer whose team programmed DNA in a computer in the first attempt to build a synthetic organism? Venter told the packed audience in Dublin that life is DNA-software-driven machinery that operates protein robots. Here's the key passage in the article:

"All living cells that we know of on this planet are 'DNA software'-driven biological machines comprised of hundreds of thousands of protein robots, coded for by the DNA, that carry out precise functions," said Venter. "We are now using computer software to design new DNA software."That's a remarkable statement. It has intelligent design written all through it.

O'Connell describes how Schrödinger realized 69 years ago that a living cell had to carry information. Without knowing the structure of DNA, he envisioned it as an "aperiodic crystal" that could store instructions. She quotes Luke O'Neill, a professor of biochemistry at Trinity and master of ceremonies for the July 12 lecture:

"The gene had to be stable, so it had to be a crystal, and it had to have information so it was aperiodic," he explained.

"Equally important, Schrödinger also discussed the possibility of a genetic code, stating the concept in clear physical terms."

The rest, as they say, is history: DNA did turn out to be aperiodic, stable, and the bearer of a genetic code.

It's serendipitous that the history of molecular genetics parallels the history of software engineering. Just when Schrödinger was pondering how cells might store information in a genetic code, software engineers were figuring out how to program the new computers being invented, first the clunky vacuum-tube monstrosities, followed by devices with increasing power and decreasing size as transistors (1947) and integrated circuits (1958) became available.

Software engineers faced the challenges of informational systems: How can instructions be stored and executed to command robotic devices like input-output machines and printers? How can software respond and adapt robustly to changing environments? How can hardware and software be integrated into systems and networks? Simultaneously but independently, geneticists were learning how the newly discovered DNA code stored instructions and executed them, solving the very same challenges. The timing of these discoveries was as uncanny as the similarities between them.

In Signature in the Cell (2009), Stephen Meyer used software as a simile for genetic information, quoting Microsoft founder Bill Gates: "DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created" (p. 12).

Venter's lecture essentially brings the parallel tracks together. DNA is not just likesoftware, he said: that's what it is. To prove the point, he added, "We are now using computer software to design new DNA software."

O'Connell continues,

The digital and biological worlds are becoming interchangeable, he added, describing how scientists now simply send each other the information to make DIY biological material rather than sending the material itself.Today's answer to "What is life?" therefore, is: it's software. That's a very ID-friendly idea, for numerous reasons:

  • Our uniform experience with software is that it is intelligently designed.
  • Software runs on machines, and machines are intelligently designed.
  • Software operates other machines (e.g., robots) that are also intelligently designed.
  • Systems of interconnected software and hardware are irreducibly complex.
  • Functional systems imply purposefully planned architecture of the whole.
  • Software is comprised of information, which is immaterial.
  • Information is independent of the storage medium bearing it (e.g., electrons, magnets, silicon chips, molecules of DNA).
  • Meaningful information is aperiodic; so is DNA.
  • As a form of information, DNA software is complex and specified.
  • Epigenetics regulates genetics just as computer software can regulate other software.
  • Software can improve over time, but only by intelligent design, not by random mutation.
  • Software can contain bugs and still be intelligently designed.


  • O'Connell told a humorous story that illustrates that last point. When Venter's team programmed their synthetic organism by running their computer-generated "DNA software" through a bacterium's "hardware," it was buggy. They had inserted some text as a watermark, including a quote by late physicist Richard Feynman -- but got it wrong. They had to go back later on and fix it.

    No one sensible would claim that a mistake in the software by Venter's team counts as evidence against its being the product of intelligent design, nor should anyone look to dysteleology in life as a disproof of design. Intelligent design theory makes no claims regarding the quality of the design reflected in any phenomenon. It only points to the presence of design.

    One might, of course, raise legitimate questions about the wisdom of tinkering with living software. ID theory leaves such questions in the capable hands of ethicists, philosophers, theologians, policy wonks and voters.

    Nevertheless, viewing life as software represents a fundamental paradigm shift with profound implications. It's no longer a Paley-like design argument from analogy, as Stephen Meyer explained in Signature in the Cell (p. 386): it's an inference to the best explanation based on stronger premises.

    The argument does not depend upon the similarity of DNA to a computer program or human language, but upon the presence of an identical feature in both DNA and intelligently designed codes, languages, and artifacts. Because we know intelligent agents can (and do) produce complex and functionally specified sequences of symbols and arrangements of matter, intelligent agency qualifies as an adequate causal explanation for the origin of this effect. Since, in addition, materialistic theories have proven universally inadequate for explaining the origin of such information, intelligent design now stands as the only entity with the causal power known to produce this feature of living systems. Therefore, the presence of this feature in living systems points to intelligent design as the best explanation of it, whether such systems resemble human artifacts in other ways or not.We might even say now, using Venter's description, that ID is not just an inference but a logical deduction. Life and software don't only contain an identical feature, but constitute an identity. They are one and the same.

    evolutionnews.org
    --------------

    On the splicing code:

    You Won’t Believe This One: Gene Splicing Stuns and Bewilders Evolutionists



    Proteins perform a wide variety of tasks in the cell and when a particular job needs to be done the right protein is quickly synthesized by unwinding the right DNA gene, making a copy, editing the transcript, and translating the transcript, according to the DNA code, into a sequence of amino acids. Evolutionists had no explanation for this incredible and profound molecular manufacturing system (which still out performs anything scientists can come up with), but they remained steadfast. Indeed they argued all of this provided yet more proofs for evolution. Why? Because the DNA code was essentially universal. As one evolutionist explained, while the genetic code is preserved across species, it would not be if the species had been created independently. [1] If that’s true then the genetic code must have somehow evolved. Is that true? It’s difficult to say because that is, as usual, a non scientific claim. But aside from the metaphysics and the unexplained molecular manufacturing system, there is another problem with this story. It has now turned out to demolish evolutionary theory and has left evolutionists staring into the headlights.

    Years after the universal DNA code was discovered, several other codes were also discovered which were not only astonishingly complex, but they were not universal. One such code is the so-called splicing code.

    In higher organisms many of the genes are broken up into expressed regions, or exons, which are separated by intervening regions, or introns.
    After the gene is copied the transcript is edited, splicing out the introns and glueing together the exons. Not only is it a fantastically complex process, it also adds tremendous versatility to how genes are used. A given gene may be spliced into alternate sets of exons, resulting in different protein machines. There are three genes, for example, that generate over 3,000 different spliced products to help control the neuron designs of the brain.

    And how does the splicing machinery know where to cut and paste? There is an elaborate code that the splicing machinery uses to decide how to do its splicing. This splicing code is extremely complicated, using not only sequence patterns in the DNA transcript, but also the shape of transcript, as well as other factors.

    [ It's been known for a long time gene expression is controlled by another code (in addition to the known protein-assembly code). Glad to see this is being recognized. ]

    What is also complex about the new code is that it is context-dependent. In fact it even varies in different tissue types within a species. And studies of RNA binding proteins show even more complexity. These proteins are part of the molecular splicing machinery and they often regulate each other leading to an “unprecedented degree of complexity and compensatory relationships.” As one researcher explained:

    We identified thousands of binding sites and altered splicing events for these hnRNP proteins and discovered that, surprisingly these proteins bind and regulate each other and a whole network of other RNA binding proteins.
    Regulate each other and a whole network of other RNA binding proteins? Needless to say there is no scientific explanation for how this marvel could have evolved. And since this code is not universal but, quite the opposite, highly varying even between tissues, we can safely conclude the “universal code” prediction of evolution is falsified.

    If evolution is true then we expect codes to be universal. [ I think that was always a false premise. If genetic codes could spontaneously generate, that would have happened a vast number of times and some of the surviving life forms would have very different protein-assembly codes. ] Here we have an obvious example of a code that most definitely is not universal, so the prediction is false. And if a prediction is false, then either the theory is false, or it must be modified. But with so many falsifications, and so many modifications that make no sense on evolution, it is obvious that something is very wrong with the theory. In this case we would have to say that random mutations just happened to create many different splicing codes, over and over, of unimaginable complexity.

    1. Mark Ridley, Evolution. (Boston: Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1993) 49.

    darwins-god.blogspot.com

    ........

    Lino D'Ischia June 23, 2012 12:33 PM
    Oleg:

    Nice story, but this is "apples" to evolution's "oranges."

    As you state:
    Einstein's relativity peacefully coexists with Newtonian mechanics. Wave theory of light agrees with geometrical optics in the appropriate limit, where both apply.

    In the "limit" they are equivalent. And both Newtonian gravity, and Einstein-ian gravity, bring about correct results. You use one, or the other, given your needs. (Didn't Feynman calculate that the difference between the gravitational potential on the surface of the Sun using GR was different from Newtonian calculations by a factor of something like 1 in 10^12?)

    The situation with NS is very different. It's predictions are almost nil; and most of Darwin's predictions have turned out to be wrong. Darwinism HAD to be joined to Mendelian genetics, and it was done only in a vague sort of way [R.A. Fisher, the Godfather of neo-Darwinism, used a formula (the genetical theory of evolution) which is used in statistical mechanics---so vague is it.]. And the Neutral Theory originated because of the complete failure of neo-Darwinism to explain the extremely high levels of polymorphism found in living beings (another "prediction"---this time of "neo"-Darwinism---that was wrong).

    And, per the originator of Neutral Theory, Kimura, there are severe limitations to what Neutral Theory can do.

    So, where does that leave us? Well, at the The Edge of Evolution! That is, NS does indeed have some applicability (Here's a prediction: in fifteen years, even the little that NS is supposed to be able to do will be shown to rely on other in vivo processes); but, it is indeed only at the 'edges', and very limited indeed.

    When this limited mechanism encounters the type of problem-to-be-solved that CH is describing, no amount of NS/Neutral Theory, or whatever nonsense you want to throw at the problem, is going to even come remotely close to explaining its origins.

    As CH points out, it's time to leave Darwinism on the dustbin of history, and to move on to something that makes sense: intelligent design.

    BTW, Dr. Cornelius, here's a rejoinder to the argument made about the "universal" code: there are all kinds of computers, with all kind of different capabilities, running all sorts of different and very complex software programs, and they all are built on the x86 architecture. Does this prove that they evolved from one another? IOW, what limits a Designer from using the same design over and over, while building more powerful machines and software programs.


    bornagain77
    June 23, 2012 3:39 PM
    Oleq , you mention many branches of science that have been modified as new evidence has come along. The trouble with your analogy is that at least those nascent theories had a mathematical foundation that comported somewhat roughly to reality to start off with. Darwinism never has had any such mathematical foundation;

    Nobel Prize-Winning Physicist Wolfgang Pauli on the Empirical Problems with Neo-Darwinism - Casey Luskin - February 27, 2012
    Excerpt: "In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of 'natural selection' in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely 'scientific' and 'rational,' they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word 'chance', not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word 'miracle.'" Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) -
    evolutionnews.org

    Murray Eden, as reported in “Heresy in the Halls of Biology: Mathematicians Question Darwinism,” Scientific Research, November 1967, p. 64.
    “It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109.
    creationscience.com

    Michael Behe on the theory of constructive neutral evolution - February 2012
    Excerpt: I don’t mean to be unkind, but I think that the idea seems reasonable only to the extent that it is vague and undeveloped; when examined critically it quickly loses plausibility. The first thing to note about the paper is that it contains absolutely no calculations to support the feasibility of the model. This is inexcusable. - Michael Behe
    uncommondescent.com

    Oxford University Admits Darwinism's Shaky Math Foundation - May 2011
    Excerpt: However, mathematical population geneticists mainly deny that natural selection leads to optimization of any useful kind. This fifty-year old schism is intellectually damaging in itself, and has prevented improvements in our concept of what fitness is. - On a 2011 Job Description for a Mathematician, at Oxford, to 'fix' the persistent mathematical problems with neo-Darwinism within two years.
    evolutionnews.org

    .........

    John June 23, 2012 12:35 PM
    I remember when they reverse engineered a good part of the splicing code (last year sometime wasn't it?) It would be really cool to see how the entire spliceosome moves and makes "decisions". The interesting thing is that this is a higher level code - ie. it's like C++ built upon the ASM code of DNA transcripts while the language suite itself is also built from ASM. What this means for evolution is that it somehow has to mutate the ASM level code which then has to be stable long enough to give the C++ code on top of it enough chance to evolve anything at all.

    At what point can it be considered intelligently programmed? Or as they said, "When Messiah comes, will he do more miracles than these?"

    ...........
    M. Holcumbrink June 23, 2012 9:28 PM
    John, I think of that passage quite often, whenever the detractors of ID play the black knight. These people would ascribe intelligence to a single rune scrawled on a cave wall, but when we discover algorithmically compressed machine code regulating sophisticated compound machinery at the root of biological life, they chalk that up to a cosmic fart. So my thought becomes “you say life is not designed, but if it had been designed, would it be even more algorithmic, fully integrated, optimized and fantastic than this?”
    ..............

    Claudiu Bandea June 24, 2012 5:57 AM
    Elizabeth Liddle: And evolutionary theory, as you well know, Cornelius, is a scientific theory. So I ask you again: what is wrong with the theory of evolution as a explanation of "how this marvel could have evolved"?

    True scientists should not just say that ‘evolution did it’, but they should present plausible models on 'how evolution did it'.

    To my knowledge, no such models have been advanced by the current science establishment. Even worse, apparently, this issue has not been even been seriously raised, so we should thank Cornelius for raising it!

    .........



    To: 2MAR$ who wrote (39718)7/31/2013 11:37:30 PM
    From: Greg or e  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 69300
     
    Is Jesus Simply a Retelling of the Horus Myth? Explore More Content


    Would This Bother You?
    There are many atheists who claim that Jesus never really lived. What if I told you that there was once an ancient religion which described God as a being who:

    • Conceived by a virgin mother named Meri, and had a stepfather named Seb (Joseph)
    • Was born in a cave, his birth announced by an angel, heralded by a star and attended by shepherds
    • Attended a special rite of passage at the age of twelve and there is no data on the child
    • from the age of 12 to 30
    • Was baptized in a river at the age of 30, and his baptizer was later beheaded
    • Had 12 disciples
    • Performed miracles, exorcized demons, raised someone from the dead, walked on water
    • Was called “Iusa”, the “ever-becoming son” and the “Holy Child”
    • Delivered a “Sermon on the Mount”, and his followers recounted his sayings
    • Was transfigured on the Mount
    • Was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and was resurrected
    • Called “Way”, “the Truth the Light”, “Messiah”, “God’s Anointed Son”, “Son of Man”, “Good Shepherd”, “Lamb of God”, “Word made flesh”, “Word of Truth”, “the KRST” or “Anointed One”
    • Was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish, Lamb and Lion.
    • Came to fulfill the Law, and was supposed to reign one thousand years
    Would you recognize this religious figure? Sound like someone you know? Well, of course, we are describing the figure of Horus!! What, did you think we were talking about Jesus? It sure sounds like Jesus doesn’t it? Would it shake your faith to discover that Horus was an Egyptian god who was worshipped thousands of years before the time of Christ? While Horus is no longer worshipped in our world, there are a number of atheists who are now assembling to argue that Christianity is simply a copycat of previously existing faith systems. Their argument is that Christianity is not true, and that Jesus never lived. He is simply a copied form of deity from a number of pre-existing mythologies!

    Is He Really Like Jesus?
    A first reading of these similarities is startling and for many Christians, these descriptions have caused them to stumble and doubt the true historicity of the man, Jesus Christ. So it’s important for us to examine the truth of these claims of similarity and to also see what the REAL mythologies can tell us about the heart of man that drives us to imagine what God might be like. There can be little doubt that there are a number of pre-Christian mythologies with dying saviors, but when we examine these figures closely, we’ll see that they only foreshadow the God who truly DID come to earth. These mythologies actually SUPPORT the claims of Christ. Before we begin to examine this mythology carefully, it’s important to recognize that a significant portion of what we just read about Horus is simply FALSE, and lacks ANY Egyptian archeological support whatsoever. Much of what is seen on this list is simply the effort of atheists to make Horus look as much like Jesus as possible. So let’s take a look at the truth and see what it can tell us.

    The Truth About Horus
    The mythical Egyptian God, Horus, was worshipped principally in two cult centers at Bekhdet in the North and Idfu in the south. Little remains at the northern location, but there is still a large and well preserved Ptolemaic temple at Idfu. So, most information about Horus comes from this southern temple. Horus was usually represented as a falcon, as he was a great sky God and the Son of Isis and Osiris. Let’s take a look at the claims we have already described and separate truth from fiction, and then try to understand the underlying hope of the people who invented the god called Horus:

    Claim: Horus was conceived by a virgin mother named Meri, and had a stepfather named Seb (Joseph)
    Truth: Horus was NOT conceived of a virgin. In fact both mural and textual evidence from Egypt indicate that Isis (there is no evidence that “Meri” was ever part of her name) hovered over the erect penis (that she created) of Osiris and conceived Horus. While she may have been a virgin before the conception, she utilizes Osiris’ penis to conceive. She later had another son with Osiris as well. There is no evidence of three wise men as part of the story at all (in neither Horus’ nor Jesus’ birth story for that matter!). Seb was actually the ‘earth god’, (earth itself, just as Nut was the sky); He was not Horus’ earthly father. Seb is NOT the equivalent of Joseph and, in most cases, he is described as Osiris’ father!

    The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: Clearly men dream and think about God, and when we do that, it is reasonable for us to imagine that God be in some way different from the natural order that He has created. It’s reasonable to assume then, that He would appear in a supernatural way, defying the natural order of things.

    • Claim: Horus was born in a cave, his birth announced by an angel, heralded by a star and attended by shepherds
    • Truth: There is no reference to a cave or manger in the birth story at all. In fact none of these details are present in the ancient Egyptian stories of Horus. Horus was born in a swamp. His birth was not heralded by an angel. There was no star to announce his birth.
    • Claim: Horus attended a special rite of passage at the age of twelve and there is no data on the child from the age of 12 to 30
    • Truth: There is no continuous effort in the Horus mythology to account for all these years, so there are no real gaps in the chronology. Horus never taught in any temple at twelve (as did Jesus), and keep in mind that Jesus didn’t ‘disappear’ in the years between His teaching in the temple and His baptism. He was simply working as a carpenter.
    • Claim: Horus was baptized in a river at the age of 30, and his baptizer was later beheaded.
    • Truth: Horus was never baptized. While the conspiracy theorists will often point to “Anup the Baptizer” and claim he was later beheaded, there is no such person in Horus’ story.
    • Claim: Horus had 12 disciples
    • Truth: Horus had only four disciples (called ‘Heru-Shemsu’), but at some point in his story there is reference to sixteen followers, and a group of unnumbered followers who join Horus in battle (called ‘mesnui’). But there’s no reference to twelve followers.
    The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: It is reasonable to imagine that God, if he was to come to earth, would then gather to himself disciples that would continue to share the truth with others.

    • Claim: Horus performed miracles, exorcized demons, raised someone from the dead, walked on water
    • Truth: Of course Horus performed miracles, after all he was supposed to be a god!! But there was no mention of exorcizing demons, raising people from the dead or walking on water.
    The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: It is reasonable to expect that if there is a God (a true God), He would have the power to perform the miraculous and control the forces of the natural environment.

    • Claim: Horus was called “Iusa”, the “ever-becoming son” and the “Holy Child”
    • Truth: No one in Egyptian history was ever called “Iusa” (the word does not exist) nor was anyone called “Holy Child”.
    • Claim: Horus delivered a “Sermon on the Mount”, and his followers recounted his sayings. He was transfigured on the Mount
    • Truth: Horus never delivered a “Sermon on the Mount”, nor was he transfigured.
    • Claim: Horus was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and was resurrected
    • Truth: Horus is not reported to have died at all in the vast majority of story versions. There is also no crucifixion story. Instead, Horus is usually described as eventually merging with Re (the Sun god) after which he ‘dies’ and is ‘reborn’ every single day as the sun rises. (This is a bit of a stretch at a death and resurrection parallel). Now there is an unofficial story that describes Horus as dying and being cast in pieces into the water, and later fished out by a crocodile at Isis’ request.
    The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: If there is a true God, we would expect him to have mastery over death and be able to control the powers of death and life.

    • Claim: Horus was called “Way”, “the Truth the Light”, “Messiah”, “God’s Anointed Son”, “Son of Man”, “Good Shepherd”, “Lamb of God”, “Word made flesh”, “Word of Truth”, “the KRST” or “Anointed One”
    • Truth: None of these titles are in Egyptian history, but Horus IS called by several names you might expect for any god in mythology: “Great God”, “Chief of the Powers”, “Master of Heaven”, and “Avenger of His Father”. Horus was also not called “the Krst” because this word in Egyptian means “burial” (it wasn’t a title at all).
    The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: If there is a God, we would expect Him to be powerful and possess a title that reflects that power.

    • Claim: Horus was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish, Lamb and Lion.
    • Truth: Some of the conspiracy theorists try to show an association with fish (by virtue of the fact that Horus WAS a fish, very unlike Jesus), but there is no evidence that Horus was ever called a “fisher” or was ever associated with the Lion or the Lamb.
    • Claim: Horus came to fulfill the Law, and was supposed to reign one thousand years
    • Truth: There was no Egyptian “law” for Horus to fulfill, and there is no mention of a thousand year reign in Egyptian mythology.
    So, What is Left?
    From this quick examination of the Horus tradition, we can see that he was NOT conceived of a virgin, and his mother’s name was NOT Meri. There were NOT three wise men who attended his birth, and he had NO earthly father named Joseph. He was NOT born in a cave or manger (he was born in a swamp), his birth was NOT heralded by an angel, nor was it attended by shepherds. There are NO missing 18 years in his life story, and NO story about a special event in the temple at twelve. He was NOT baptized at 30 by a baptizer who was later beheaded. He did NOT have 12 disciples, and while he certainly performed miracles, he did NOT exorcize demons, raise the dead or walk on water like Jesus. Horus was NOT called, “Iusa”, the “ever-becoming son”, the “Holy Child”, the “Way”, “the Truth the Light”, “Messiah”, “God’s Anointed Son”, “Son of Man”, “Good Shepherd”, “Lamb of God”, “Word made flesh”, “Word of Truth”, “the KRST” or the “Anointed One”! He did NOT deliver a “Sermon on the Mount”, NOR was he transfigured. He was NOT crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, NOR resurrected! He did NOT come to fulfill the law and was NOT said to reign for one thousand years. So in hindsight, how similar is Horus to Jesus after all?

    How Could They Have Imagined That?
    Even with all the differences between Osiris and Jesus, it is still striking that early men would imagine a God with even a few similarities, don’t you think? How could that happen? Is it really possible that someone could imagine something that could later become a reality, even if only in part? Well, let’s take a look at another example from history. What if I told you that a man named Morgan Robertson once wrote about a British ocean liner that was about 800 feet long, weighed over 60,000 tons, and could carry about 3,000 passengers? The ship had a top cruising speed of 24 knots, had three propellers, and about 20 lifeboats. What if I told you that this ocean liner hit an iceberg on its maiden voyage in the month of April, tearing an opening in the starboard side forward portion of the ship, and sinking along with about 2,000 passengers? Would you recognize the event from history? You might say, “Hey, that’s the Titanic!” Well, you would be wrong. While all these details are identical to the Titanic, the ship I am talking about is the “Titan” and it is a fictional ship described in Robertson’s book called “the Wreck of the Titan” or “Futility” (Buccaneer Books, Cutchogue, New York, 1898). This book was written fourteen years BEFORE the disaster took place, and several years before the construction was even begun on the Titanic! In addition to this, other writers and thinkers had also started to develop a mythology about such large ships. In the 1880’s, the well known English journalist, W. T. Stead also wrote an account of a sinking ocean liner in the mid-Atlantic, and by 1882 had added the detail that an iceberg would be the cause of the disaster. There are also quite a number of recorded premonitions on the part of passengers who cancelled at the last minute before boarding the Titanic for its maiden voyage in 1912, citing that the ship would suffer a similar fate.

    How could all these people foresee something like this? How could Robertson foresee this so accurately? Well, it is quite possible that these men and women had a prophetic gift of sorts (after all, even atheists will concede that some among us are at least more intuitive than others), but it is also possible that they simply observed the world around them, thought about the possibilities, examined the history of man leading up to the era, and imagined what an ocean liner like this might be like. Clearly they did actually imagine something that was close to the truth of history. Now if a thousand years from now we were examining the truth of the Titanic in history, and we discovered the story of the Titan, do you think we would find ourselves saying, “Hey, that story about the Titanic is a lie, it was just a re-creation of a prior mythology called the Titan!” I hope not. I hope, instead, that we would evaluate the evidence related to the existence of the Titanic, read the eyewitness accounts, study the impact the event had on history, and then make a decision about the event. I would hope that a prior mythology would not stop our search for the truth. And let’s face it, the similarities between the Titan and the Titanic are far greater than the similarities between Horus and Jesus.

    What Was in the Heart of Those Who Created Horus?
    So, is there also something in the heart of man that drives him to seek God and try his best to understand and know him? Is there something in the heart of man that encourages him to dream and imagine mythologies about God, just like he might imagine a boat like the Titanic? The Bible certainly maintains that God has placed the truth of his existence in the world around us:

    Romans 1:18-20
    The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    And the Bible also tells us that God has given us a conscience that testifies to his existence:

    Romans 2:12-16
    All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

    Why should we be surprised that as people created in the image of God, we would have a mind and a heart that dreams about the nature of our creator? If God has placed his moral truth in our heart, and hinted at his existence with the wonder of the created world around us, it is reasonable that even before anything was directly revealed in the Bible, men and women thought, imagined and dreamed about the nature of God (just like some obviously thought about large ocean liners!) We would actually expect these mythologies to bear a resemblance to the reality of God’s nature once it IS revealed to us, just as the Titan resembled the Titanic!! And that appears to be the case with Horus. But let’s be realistic about the limited Horus similarities. They are NOT all that powerful and striking; especially when we investigate them and see that the vast majority of the claims of similarity are simply not historically verified. They are lies.

    But go back for a minute and re-read the reasoning of the creators of the Horus mythology. Think about what motivated them. They reasoned through the notion of God, based on what they saw in their environment and the seed of God’s conscience planted in their heart, and decided that if there is a God, (1) He must be in some way different from the natural order that He has created, (2) He may appear in his natural order in a supernatural way, (3) He would love us enough to gather to himself disciples that would continue to share the truth with others, (4) He must have the power to perform the miraculous and control the forces of the natural environment, (5) He must be powerful enough to defeat death, and (6) His power and majesty would warrant His having titles that reflect His nature.

    So, How Did God Eventually Appear?
    OK, these six driving motivations have clearly contributed to the thinking of those who originally created the mythology of Horus. As humans, we can evaluate the environment around us and form a reasonable notion about the God who created it. While Horus is MUCH different from Jesus, it is interesting to note that God eventually met and exceeded the expectations of those who dreamed about Him. Jesus is everything we might have hoped for, and so much more. He is powerful and defied the natural expectation upon his emergence into our world. He loves us enough to gather to himself disciples that will continue to share the truth with others. He has the power to perform miracles and control the forces of the natural environment. He is powerful enough to defeat death. His power and majesty warrant His having titles that reflect His nature!
    Jesus meets the expectation that early God seekers had and exceeds their expectation in every way!

    Paul Told Them That God Was Greater Than Their Expectations
    That really shouldn’t surprise us, because Paul told early God seekers this very thing as he was addressing the people of Athens on Mars Hill, two thousand years ago. He told these Greek thinkers and seekers that while they had imagined the nature of God (just as Horus believers had also dreamed about God), there was actually a TRUE God, Jesus Christ, who came into the world and exceeded their expectations:

    Acts 17:22-31
    Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

    Paul seemed to recognize that God had an answer for all those who had been dreaming about His nature. God was not unaware of all the mythologies that preceded His appearance in the form of Jesus Christ. He knew everything that these cultures had imagined and dreamed about Him. He saw how they had shaped their gods. He knew how they had described them with miraculous powers and abilities. Why should it surprise us that God would eventually appear and prove to mankind that He was the ONE TRUE GOD by simply MEETING our expectations, point for point (and then surpassing these expectations along the way)? It should not surprise us that God might, in some way, CHOOSE to appear in a form that is consistent with the expectations of man, particularly when God wants his creation to recognize him. God could simply be saying, “Children, I know you have imagined me to be a certain way. In some small measure you have imagined correctly. In many other ways you have been very far from the mark. Let me show you who I am. Watch me meet all the expectations you had about my nature. Let me help you believe by the miraculous life that I will live among you. Let me rescue you in a way you could never have dreamed of.”

    Jesus Ends the Search
    Maybe that’s why in the long lineage of mythologies and descriptions of God, Jesus completes the list. There are no significant mythologies that follow Jesus. Ever wonder why? Is it simply because the human race developed past such fables? Or is it because the human race developed past its own immaturity to the point and place where God finally determined it was time to appear in the flesh? Perhaps God decided that the time in which he had “overlooked such ignorance”, was now complete, so He presented himself in a way that ended all mythology. He appeared in TRUE power and glory, putting all prior mythologies to rest forever; meeting and exceeding anything we could ever have hoped for.

    Christianity Continues to Thrive
    While there are actually very FEW similarities between Horus and Jesus in detail, there are similarities between them in the underlying expectations early seekers had for God. Jesus simply meets the hopes and dreams of these seekers as the true incarnate God. While Horus worship is now a dead religion, Christianity continues to thrive. Why? Because the Horus tradition is inconsistent with the geological history of our world, inconsistent with the archeological history of humanity, and unsupported by textual evidence. In contrast, Christianity still continues to speak to the minds of seekers today. It has strong geological and archeological consistency with what we see in our world and strong textual evidence to support the earliest of claims. Atheists have tried to portray Horus as something he isn’t in order to make us believe that Jesus never existed at all. But the story of Horus should only encourage us to believe in the God who exceeds our expectations!