Some liberals know that many or most liberal policies are failures and think more conservative policies would be in order. But imo their emotional commitment to liberalism keeps them from "changing sides" and voting for a conservative candidate. The self-image is tied up in being liberal. It tells them they are the superior - morally and intellectually - part of our benighted society. Their ego needs keep them locked into identification of themselves as liberals.
Liberals who are privately sane when it comes to guns:
In the 1960's the ACLU helped empty the Insane Asylums because they were considered to be treating the mentally ill in inhumane ways. Now that the severely mentally ill roam freely among us, what do we do as a society to protect the rights of the sick without exposing the rest of us to unspeakable crimes?
 Message 28607435
If there were a correlation between recreation shooters and mass killings, I could see your point. It is probably like R^2 = 1e-9 or lower. A very tiny proportion of life-long gun owners do anything illegal. Less than 1 in 100,000 guns ever takes a life. The ones that take lives probably take more than one. This is a defining characteristic of an uncorrelated variable. We could make motels illegal because murders often happen there relative to homes.
And if remember correctly, mass killings have been illegal since before the Middle Ages. Even the outlawing of dueling only made dueling illegal not fencing. Or pistol ownership.
Message 28608011
I know this is hard for people not into the shooting sports, but for some people collecting weapons is like riding dirt bikes. You can argue that a dirt bike serves no purpose other than to tear up the environment, but it is not technically true. It serves a huge amusement function for those who love it. One can argue that people don't need amusement but that is a slippery slot encompassing a whole lot of activities including private aviation, car racing, parachuting, free climbing, etc.
Message 28607925
From: bentwayof 212515I don't want only conservatives to be armed.
Message 28621506
| From: bentway | of 231972 | | "A shotgun, the easiest gun to buy in America and a gun not even the most liberal of democrats are even hinting at restricting. "
It's the best gun for home defense. I have a pump, with just the sound of me racking a shell into the chamber puts evil-doers on notice. Your aim doesn't have to be perfect. The pellets are unlikely to go through a wall and kill an innocent.
Recommended by vice president Joe Biden!
businessinsider.com
Let's face it, we're NEVER going to get rid of guns in America. Guns are in our constitution! So, you might as well buy YOURS.
siliconinvestor.com
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Liberals who are privately sane on educational and welfare issues but will ALWAYS support counter-productive liberal candidates and policies for strictly emotional ego-gratification reasons:
| From: bentway | Read Replies (1) of 212719 | | "We have a problem with minority students, but since Asians and whites are flourishing in our schools, their problems probably have more to do with society and parents, than with schools. But that's an uncomfortable answer."
I totally agree with this. I'm hoping our first black president will send the message to all minority kids that they too can go anywhere they want in life, if they apply themselves. Their families might help or hinder them, their path might be harder than a white kid's, but in the end, it's up to them and it's really there.
Message 28626544
We have a systemic problem and while you can talk about "getting 'er done"- we don't want to do more harm than good. A lot of giveaway programs have made things worse, rather than better. I think the solution to the inner cities starts with strengthening families- heterosexual families, lesbian families- I don't care, but children need more than one female single parent, even if she's a good one. Right now welfare is structured to discourage families, and that needs to change, right now.
Next, we need health workers and social workers to start programs- right now, on parenting, and health care, and manners- and they need to be mandatory. No assistance if you don't do the program. And we need to have mandatory career training- for jobs in the area. I'd like to see massive community gardens, so there are more fresh fruits and veggies available.
But things are unlikely to get done the way I would want. So, I'm just hoping government doesn't make things worse. The way assistance programs are run now is not the best way to do them, obviously. We could do better. Will education be a piece of that puzzle? Sure.
You're the one who said you didn't know why people didn't believe in education. But no one said they didn't believe in it. Ergo, that's a straw man.
Message 28632004
| From: epicure | 4 Recommendations Read Replies (1) of 213120 | | You may think they are "right wing" ideas. But ideas are just ideas. Some ideas the right wing likes- often for the wrong reasons- but it doesn't make the ideas "bad" just because the right wing likes them.
Family, for example, helps a child succeed. We have hard data on this Koan. If you want to ignore it, just because the right wing happens to like families too, that's short sighted, imo.
And I did not imply how education helped you. You said that.
My kid is going to UC Davis because my kid scored in the top 98th percentile, and does not need remedial help to go to Davis. My kid has had two parents grooming it since it was born. My kid had every enrichment program we could find. And I and my husband were willing to pay an enormous amount of our money to have our kids at UC Davis.
I went to Berkeley with minority affirmative action students. They were utterly unprepared for Berkeley. They had to have a special tutoring program for them (and in one instance were given the actual test answers for a test) and still they failed.
So while I'd like to join hands with you and sing Kumbaya and get everyone a fabulous job, not everyone is intelligent enough, or temperamentally suited to college, and a lot of students cannot remediate themselves enough to hack college. It is cruel to send students (black, white and other) off to college, to rack up huge loads of debt, when they haven't a shot at ever succeeding.
I do not believe in the positive results of mass higher education. It defers life too much for a lot of people. Especially when they major in moronic majors which are not needed in society.
We have had this debate before, and while I guess it's interesting you think a college education in even the stupidest majors is rewarding, I will never agree with you on that. And as for the majors that make you money, you need preparation for those- and for many of them, you need a good ability to grasp mathematics. I wish more people had that, but they don't- and that involves aptitude, not just education.
If only things were as simple as you seem to think they are. But they're not.
Message 28632341
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| From: cosmicforce | 1 Recommendation Read Replies (1) of 213122 | | And it is unsustainable...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/us/politics/financial-outlook-dims-for-social-security.html?_r=0
In one year projected insolvency shortened by 3 years.
Message 28631203
| From: cosmicforce | Read Replies (2) of 213122 | | > increases productivity by $60 to $300<
That is a difficult initial value differential equation if we believe in macroeconomics. These equations become divergent or convergent depending upon different ratios of positive and negative feedback and the multipliers given to these elements. I think these make it impossible to guess the output.
Based upon my experiences with human nature, if something is given for free that other people have to work for, the net productivity falls. It is a death spiral because those that really don't want to work in their marginal job (all they are qualified to do) see marginal advantages to becoming "needy" especially if "needy" doesn't mean being all that poor.
I think everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE) who receives a government dollar has to do something - from scraping bird crap from benches to holding the hand of the dying, dependent upon age, skill and demeanor. Many welfare states will circle down the drain of reduced productivity if there is no incentive to work.
Message 28631160
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| From: bentway | Read Replies (1) of 215374 | | Fiscal discipline is a good idea. Too bad it's championed by clowns.
Message 28677606
| From: bentway | Read Replies (1) of 215374 | | Matching our spending to our income is a good idea. That (R)'s want to do it NOW, and do it on the backs of the needy is not. But, the idea itself is sound, and NEEDS championing.
That's the main harm the (R)'s do. We NEED a rational opposition party. They don't provide that. The (D)'s aren't right all the time. If they do obtain total control, you'll clearly see that. That's why I'm an independent, not a (D).
Message 28677648
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OK, the above shows that some of the smarter liberals secretly realize that liberal ideas SUCK big time. And that conservative ideas are needed. But they can't go conservative because their self-image is tied up in their liberalism. So they remain part of the problem even while realizing there is a problem. Liberalism teaches them they're special and not evil and backward like the rest of the country:
| From: epicure | of 215375 | | The Germans don't have a shit load of bass ackward citizens- like we do.
Message 28677122
| To: epicure who wrote ( 217107) | 2/15/2013 10:06:11 AM | | From: Wharf Rat | of 217154 | | "They were just lower class whites, who originally came from the central valley."
A-ha... Okies
"They were also morons."
Part of the Okie job description.
Message 28727749
The message that you're special - better, smarter, more compassionate, more sophisticated - is a powerful thing for them. Ditto for the contempt they're encouraged to feel about the mass of their fellow countrymen. That is part of what defines them. |
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