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Politics : BuSab -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (20975)11/4/2013 6:45:24 PM
From: Neeka  Respond to of 23934
 
Nice post Auggy! Unfortunately republicans have been running candidates for pres that are just not up to the task you described.

I liked Romney, but he obviously didn't want it badly enough. How or why he ever let Crowley get away with what she did during that debate is stunning. He had Obama on the ropes from the get go, and let the fight slip right through his hands. Unlike Walker, he wasn't aggressive enough.

I won't even bring up McCain other than to say he is a huge disappointment.



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (20975)11/5/2013 5:08:29 AM
From: Jorj X Mckie5 Recommendations

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  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 23934
 
I agree with much of what you're saying - I just don't think we're going to get where we want to go with the rhetoric some of these people are using.
I'm not so sure about that. It is exactly that tactic that the left uses. 10 years ago, nobody really gave gay marriage much thought. Now that the cause has gone militant it got everybody's attention and gay marriage is pretty much a reality in the very foreseeable future.

That started under Bush and has continued for 5+ years. Jorj - I truly believe we had to do it in 2008. I think if we knew how close to financial collapse we really were when Lehman went down we'd be horrified.
TARP is just one of many examples. But what is important to understand is that the bailout didn't remove the risk of a financial collapse, it just delayed it and it will make the eventual recovery that much more difficult. The reason to oppose government involvement in the vast majority of our affairs, and especially economic affairs, is not arbitrary. The reason to avoid it is that, in the long run, it not only doesn't work, it makes the problems worse. Like most things in nature, our economy is cyclical. There should be no expectation that it will move up in a straight line. There should be an expectation that, as the population grows and each individual person creates wealth, our economy will generally grow as well. But it will do it in a series of advances and pullbacks. Bear markets fix the excesses of the bull markets. They have a purpose. And when we try to negate them with artificial government influences, it causes the cycles to get exaggerated. The amplitudes get greater (bigger highs, but lower lows) and the recoveries get drawn out over a longer period.

Would the financial collapse have been painful? of course. But we are going to have to deal with it someday.
Outside of the fact that it is immoral to forcefully take the wealth of one person or a group of people to solve another person or group's problems, the real reason to avoid government solutions is that they don't work. Government solutions don't work against drugs, poverty, education, teen pregnancy....or the economy. And in every example where government has strayed beyond the protection of the natural rights of individuals and resolution of conflicts between individuals and groups and national defense, it can be shown that the problems that the government was trying to solve, became worse.

Personal view - we (the Republicans) had a free pass in 2001 to respond in whatever way we wanted because the war was on terror. The response was WAY too measured imo. It should have been swift and UFB'ly devastating. We should have vaporized major cities in the middle east - we missed our chance.
We probably could have gotten away with it. I don't think it would have solved any problems, other than the thirst for revenge. Whatever our response, the idea that we try to spin it as bringing democracy to these countries and that we are doing them a favor, is absurd. If they act like enemies, treat them like enemies. That includes almost all middle east countries and especially Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. I prefer forced economic and cultural isolation to bombing, but that's why they have chocolate and vanilla.

I would contend that at times it has. The economy of the 80's and 90's were because of the Reagan/Bush policies. Whats happened in the past 5 years has set us back 30. What happened in 2001 was a catastrophe - way more than I thought it would be. We're living through an engineered depression. We need a leader with vision that can instill hope - like Reagan did. I really believed Romney had the qualities to do just that..
That's true. But Reagan/Bush did something different than other republicans. He believed in laissez faire economics. He believed in tax cuts. He believed in getting the hell out of the way. But what is more important is that we are talking about much more than just the president. The vast majority of the big government activities are initiated and facilitated by congress. And where we may find reasons to justify the republican spending, there has never really been a meaningful decline in spending regardless of who has the power in the white house or congress, just a shift in where the money goes.

I'm hoping that we're where the democrats were in 1988....waiting for the rebirth of our party. Who would have ever thought (in '88) that Bill Clinton would become President in '92? We need someone to step forward and take the lead. We need to sell hope to the American people
I think that republicans need to sell reality. But it has to be a reality that has a foundation in truth and principles. And we can't do that until we know why we hold the positions that we have and we truly have to believe in them. If you understand that a corporate bailout in the auto industry may have an immediate desired effect, but the longer term effects will be overwhelmingly negative, so we shouldn't do it, then you can't turn around and justify a bailout in the finance industry. The same principles apply regardless of industry.

We need to show that the hope and change that the democrats are selling are worse than meth and crack. And it is a good analogy, they get more rich and more powerful every time they sell something to the poor, minorities or otherwise disenfranchised population. And the promises of a quick fix can be shown to never materialize. And instead, the people who bought what the democrats sold are corrupted and they rot inside. It's time that we started identifying the true causal relationship between democrat programs and the perpetuation of poverty, segregation, racism, crime, unemployment, drugs and other self destructive behaviors.

right now, republicans can't sell conservatism because they don't know, in their heart, what true conservatism is. Most have an inkling of the ideas behind it, but most don't know it cold. We can't sell it because we don't truly know what we are selling. And in the meantime, the republicans let the liberals define them by forcing an artificial extreme position.

I actually have a whole bunch more to say on the topic, but the fact is, the republican problem has nothing to do with their message, the delivery of the message or anything else in their control The republican problem...or more accurately, the "conservative problem" is that we are not mature enough as a culture, to truly want and demand freedom and liberty along with the responsibilities that are required to maintain freedom and liberty. A teenager will demand his freedom and stomp his feet when he doesn't get to do whatever he wants. But the fact is, the vast majority of teenagers want freedom that is housed, fed and funded by mom and dad. They want the freedom without the responsibility of earning it. That's where we are as a culture. We are teenagers who talk about freedom and liberty, but the reality is that the human organism is scared shitless of having to go out and take full responsibility for their survival until the day they die.

No amount of logic will shatter that wall of fear that most people have about their long term survival without a safety net. Our job as parents is going to be how to raise our children to prosper in a world of parasites, while not becoming a parasite themselves.



To: Augustus Gloop who wrote (20975)11/5/2013 7:22:38 PM
From: Jorj X Mckie1 Recommendation

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  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 23934
 
First, I want to make sure that you know that, just because we don't agree on everything, doesn't mean that I want this conversation to discontinue. I have a PM in my inbox (I'm going to answer today!) that expresses wonder as to why I spend the time that I do on the political threads sparring with liberals. The answer is simple, I don't do it to change their minds, I do it to refine my positions and arguments. Conservatives need to have these discussions amongst themselves too. We need to refine our positions and arguments so that, if we don't necessarily agree with each other on every detail, at least we know why our compadres have the positions that they do.

If we can help each other refine our message, everyone wins.

If you look simply at the pro-life movement, the flaw in their message that allows the left to dismiss pro-lifers as crackpots, is that much of the argument is an appeal to a religious authority. The pro-life movement needs to have responses to the pithy pro-choice memes like "keep your hands off of my body" and the pro-life movement needs to appeal to the rule of law, not the rule of God.

1. If leftist women want conservatives to keep their hands off of their bodies, then they need to take responsibility for their decisions and pay for their own birth control and abortions. When pro-choicers force others to fund their abortions through taxes, they are making their bodies the business of every tax payer. We have a right to voice our opinion about how our tax dollars are spent. I'm not really a pro-lifer, but I certainly object to paying for the results of another man and woman's tryst.

2. Abortion is a constitutional issue. The federal government has an obligation to protect the natural civil rights of all individuals in the country. There are extreme positions on both sides of the issue. On the pro-life side, there are those who believe that life begins at conception. When the pro-choicers use this to dismiss the pro-life movement, we need to counter with the pro-choicers who not only believe that a woman has the right to choose to abort a baby up until birth, there are people...influential people, on the left who believe that a woman's right to choose to abort extends to some time after birth. Not kidding And I was shocked when some on the left didn't find that insane.

The point is that we need to have an answer to their attempts to dismiss conservative views by discrediting us by exaggerating our positions. And most people are not at the extremes on this issue, even at the extreme ends of the political spectrum. Most people know that a baby who has been gestating for 8 months and 3 weeks is essentially the same as a 9 month old birthed baby, except for the fact that it hasn't made the trip down the superslide to the big bright world. Most people understand that most babies are viable as individual entities outside of the mother's womb after only six months of gestation. In fact, there are several cases of babies being born after 5 months of gestation and surviving. It is clear that there is a period of time pre-birth that a baby has attained personhood and therefore has natural rights that the federal government is obligated to protect. And most people will agree that a mass of cells that has little structure or any resemblance to a human baby and also doesn't have brain wave patterns that show thinking and response to stimuli and that also can't survive outside of the womb, is probably not an individual that has reached personhood and the woman's right to autonomy over her body probably outweighs the potential future rights of the fetus.

But then there is the gray area between the 12th and 20th week where a legal definition has to be made as to what constitutes a individual that has reached personhood. In this country, a person cannot be legally deprived of life, liberty or property without due process. That means that a woman who wants an abortion would be obligated to prove that her fetus is still a fetus and that a human individual is not being deprived of its life without due process. And that's where you get into the need for an EEG to chart brain wave patterns.

I chose the abortion example because I am not a strong pro-life advocate. My views are pretty much what you see above. But I still think that, as someone who sees a grey area on the abortion issue, I can still present a rational argument that shows that even the most ardent pro-lifers are not crackpots. If they truly believe that a fetus at one month has full individual personhood, how could they not be passionate in wanting to save it's life? Even my rational argument isn't likely to change policy in a meaningful way. But what it does is change the argument from the emotionally defensive "My body, My choice" with pro-lifers cast in the role of wanting to enslave her to the puppy mill for life, to a thoughtful discussion of what defines an individual and whether or not there is a constitutional obligation to protect the rights of an individual who has not been born yet.

I think I just wrote a bunch of paragraphs on abortion....the absolute last topic that anybody should talk about and still expect anyone to think he is rational.....all to arrive at what you are saying. That our message needs to be honed such that the leftist cannot redefine us as radicals who are out of touch with reality.

What happened in 2001 was a catastrophe - way more than I thought it would be. We're living through an engineered depression.


Al Qaeda won that war within months of the 9/11 attack. I don't know if you remember, but Lost1 made the case that when we started to willingly give up our constitutionally protected rights in order to get a sense of security, that is when we lost. The patriot act basically tossed the fourth amendment out the window. With the scandal about the NSA spying on pretty much everyone, it would be crazy for individuals to not filter what they say online and over the voice networks (Cellular and PSTN). The threat of unauthorized searches has the effect of curbing our freedom of speech. In my opinion, the patriot act was and is a mistake. We would have been better off closing our borders to ALL immigrants. And we could even have a stricter visitor policy. And it would be perfectly legit to toss everyone out of the country who isn't here legally. These steps would provide more security and wouldn't violate the rights of the US Citizens. But most of us accepted the solution that gave the illusion of security while expanding the powers the government has over us as individuals. And then let's not even talk about the politically correct decisions that we made to prove how enlightened we are. So enlightened that sharia law actually has influence in Dearborn MI. So enlightened that we have muslim TSA agents.

And we could kill another 100,000 taliban and al qaeda members and it wouldn't cause one muslim to change the fundamental things that make them muslims.......we definitely lost that one. They just got the ball rolling and we did the rest ourselves.