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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: koan who wrote (751283)11/5/2013 7:50:51 PM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1578343
 
Hi koan; Re: "Plato and Socrates were simply examples of the great Greek mind. It was the level of their thinking that mattered. That level was not seen again until the age of enlightenment in the 16th century."

I agree that Plato and Socrates were "simply examples of the great Greek mind" but that's not what we are debating. You claimed that Plato and Socrates were "liberals". I claimed that they were conservatives.

Re: "Using your logic, you would accuse George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as being racist and stupid because they had slaves."

Uh, by modern standards Washington and Jefferson were racists. But in the context of their time they were enlightened on the topic of "should people (i.e. adult white males) be treated equally by law?" And this is why they were considered liberals of the time, by comparison with the British who believed in rule by hereditary monarchy. And of the two, Washington was the more conservative, Jefferson the more liberal.

Regarding Socrates and Plato, I pointed out that they were the more conservative thinkers of the time. Instead of supporting the concepts of liberty and equality, they wrote that a better government would be one by the aristocrats. This is on the conservative side of the spectrum, not the liberal side.

Greek thinkers who were on the liberal side of the idea of liberty and equality would be the leaders of the Democracy. Instead of having the anti-democratic Plato and Socrates as your hero you should have heroes on the opposite side of Socrates and Plato. My favorite is Pericles:

Pericles promoted the arts and literature; it is principally through his efforts that Athens holds the reputation of being the educational and cultural center of the ancient Greek world. He started an ambitious project that generated most of the surviving structures on the Acropolis (including the Parthenon). This project beautified the city, exhibited its glory, and gave work to the people. [2] Pericles also fostered Athenian democracy to such an extent that critics call him a populist.
en.wikipedia.org

In other words, Pericles believed in the concept of democracy of the time, where people (i.e. adult white males who own property) are treated equally. This is the liberal side of Greek thought on government of the time. Plato and Socrates were on the opposite side of this debate. They believed that the people should not govern because the people were stupid and emotional and that instead, government should be controlled by "good" people, i.e. the aristocrats. They were the conservatives of the time.

-- Carl

P.S. You need to recognize that your education in ancient Greek politics is rather thin.



To: koan who wrote (751283)11/5/2013 9:18:54 PM
From: RetiredNow  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1578343
 
We Must Stop Coddling the Elderly


By Robert Samuelson

"Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts."

- Henry Rosovsky, Harvard economic historian

Two analysts at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis have produced an important study that should (but probably won't) alter the climate for Washington's stalemated budget debate. The study demolishes the widespread notion that older Americans need exceptional protection against spending cuts because they're poorer and more vulnerable than everyone else. Coupled with the elderly's voting power, this perception has intimidated both parties and put Social Security and Medicare, which dominate federal spending, off-limits to any serious discussion or change.

It has long been obvious that the 65-and-over population doesn't fit the Depression-era stereotype of being uniformly poor, sickly and helpless. Like under-65 Americans, those 65 and over are diverse. Some are poor, sickly and dependent. Many more are financially comfortable (or rich), in reasonably good health and more self-reliant than not. With life expectancy of 19 years at age 65, most face many years of government-subsidized retirement. The stereotype survives because it's politically useful. It protects those subsidies. It discourages us from asking: Are they all desirable or deserved? For whom? At what age?

No one wants to be against Grandma, who - as portrayed in the media - is kindly, often suffering from some condition, usually financially precarious and somehow needy. But projecting this sympathetic portrait onto the entire 65-plus population is an exercise in make-believe and, frequently, political propaganda. The St. Louis Fed study refutes the stereotype. Examining different age groups, it found that since the financial crisis, incomes have risen for the elderly while they've dropped for the young and middle-aged.

The numbers are instructive. From 2007, the year before the financial crisis, to 2010, median income for the families under 40 dropped 12.4 percent to $39,644. For the middle-aged from 40 to 61, the comparable decline was 11.9 percent to $56,924. Meanwhile, those aged 62 to 69 gained 12.3 percent to $50,825. For Americans 70-plus, the increase was 15.6 percent to $31,512. (All figures adjust for inflation and are in 2010 "constant" dollars. The "median income" is the midpoint of incomes and is often considered "typical.")

There has been a historic shift in favor of today's elderly. To put this in perspective, recall that many family expenses drop with age. Mortgages are paid off; work costs vanish; children leave. Recall also that incomes typically follow a "life cycle": They start low in workers' 20s, peak in their 50s, and then decline in retirement, as wages give way to government transfers and savings. Against these realities, the long-term gains of the elderly and losses of the young are astonishing. From 1989 to 2010, median income increased 60 percent for those aged 62 to 69 while falling 6?percent for those under 40 and 2?percent for those 40 to 61.

Just why this happened is less clear. Economist William Emmons, a study co-author, suggests some possible factors: more college graduates among retirees; more stable and generous Social Security benefits; pensions. Whatever the causes, similar patterns affect families' net worth. The young and middle-aged, with high debts and wealth concentrated in housing, suffered huge losses from the financial crisis. With less debt and more diversified investments, older Americans fared better. From 1989 to 2010, the median inflation-adjusted net worth of those 70 and over rose 48?percent to $209,290. During the same years, the net worth of those under 40 fell 31?percent.

The political implications of these trends are clear, though Emmons and co-author Bryan Noeth avoid policy. We need to stop coddling the elderly. Our system of aid to the elderly - mostly, Social Security and Medicare - has a split personality. On the one hand, it serves as a safety net for the elderly by providing crucial income support for the poor and near-poor as well as health insurance. On the other hand, it provides payments to millions of already-comfortable older Americans who could get along with less or, for some, don't need subsidies. We ought to preserve the system's safety-net features while gradually curbing the outright subsidies.

The idea that Social Security and Medicare spending should be defended to the last dollar - as advocated by many liberals - is politically expedient and intellectually lazy. Rather than promote progressive ends, as it claims, it prevents government from adapting to new social and economic circumstances. It's a growing transfer from the young, who are increasingly disadvantaged, to the elderly, who are increasingly advantaged.

But political change needs honest debate, and honest debate needs a willingness to accept unpopular facts over friendly fictions. It requires that people who candidly pose difficult choices not be stigmatized. As long as Grandma is the poster child for the elderly, that won't happen.

realclearmarkets.com