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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: i-node who wrote (778055)4/2/2014 2:22:34 PM
From: koan  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 1573924
 
That is simply not true. Most of Europe did not join us and everyone knew Bush was making this stuff up to find a reason to fight the war. He even tied Iraq to 9/11 as did Rice. Everyone knew that was dead wrong.

Sadam hated Bin laden and would have killed him.

All the war did was put Iraq into the hands of Iran which is a larger enemy. We were better off with Iraq as a Sunnie buffer to Iran's Shia tribe.

That is the sort of stuff you get wrong all the time.

Not one mention in your post about how our invasion helped Iran. Or do you dispute that?

Colin Powell's Chief of staff said it was all made up by Bush.

>> Bush started two stupid wars (by himself and he lied about it)

But what do you say to the the facts, and they are facts, that --

a) Every western intelligence agency in the world that provided intelligence to the United States essentially agreed with Bush's version of the truth. Every one of them. President Clinton and Hillary, who were both in a position of knowledge, agreed with Bush's assessment. And important Democrats on the intelligence committees (like Rockefellar) agreed with it. So, how is that BUSH lied? It seems self-evident that if anyone lied it was before the information got to Bush.

b) Hans Blix HIMSELF stated in his book on the subject that HE believed Saddam had WMDs. His difference was that he wanted to drag out the process of proving it, which made no sense from an American military point of view.

c) Obama supported ONE of those two wars, and in fact has kept it going for five years and keeps it going even now without any real objective in mind. Bush certainly never supported risking our kids' lives in a war there was no objective to win; one can argue about whether the objective was worthwhile, but had he seen either war was unwinnable he would either have fixed it (like he did with the surge in Iraq) or he would have gotten the hell out.

>> that have broken the bank and caused untold suffering.

The wars did not break the bank -- it was a trillion dollars over ten years which was essentially the same as the stimulus and frankly, the wars were far more stimulative than the Obama stimulus ever was. When you judge it necessary to fight a war, you don't ask "how much?" You just do it.

As to suffering, wars do cause suffering but a failure to act often does as well. As a practical matter, in the years since Saddam was removed fewer people have died in Iraq than in the years leading up to the war at the hands of Saddam. I will say that the Iraq at Afghanistan wars have been the most humane wars ever fought in history. That's not say they're humane, only that they are as humane as wars can possibly be at this point in time.



To: i-node who wrote (778055)4/2/2014 3:12:49 PM
From: J_F_Shepard  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1573924
 
As usual you end your arguments with facts you and others believed to be true at the time. You conveniently neglect to go further along the time line when the real facts became known...ie no WMD. Blix reported it to the UN and wanted two more weeks to wrap up what he had already concluded based on evidence he found or did not find. Bush would wait the two more weeks cause it would screw up his invasion plans..... Here's Blix:

archive.redstate.com



By the time of the invasion, the fact of the matter was that the UN inspectors had achieved virtually unfettered access to suspected weapons sites, and had systematically disproved the most significant of the western intelligence that Iraq had WMD weapons programs.

You should read (and quote from, if you want to be accurate) Blix's last report to the Security Council on February 14, 2003.

Some key passages:

Since we arrived in Iraq, we have conducted more than 400 inspections covering more than 300 sites. All inspections were performed without notice, and access was almost always provided promptly. In no case have we seen convincing evidence that the Iraqi side knew in advance that the inspectors were coming.

The inspections have taken place throughout Iraq at industrial sites, ammunition depots, research centres, universities, presidential sites, mobile laboratories, private houses, missile production facilities, military camps and agricultural sites. At all sites which had been inspected before 1998, re-baselining activities were performed. This included the identification of the function and contents of each building, new or old, at a site. It also included verification of previously tagged equipment, application of seals and tags, taking samples and discussions with the site personnel regarding past and present activities. At certain sites, ground-penetrating radar was used to look for underground structures or buried equipment.

Through the inspections conducted so far, we have obtained a good knowledge of the industrial and scientific landscape of Iraq, as well as of its missile capability but, as before, we do not know every cave and corner. Inspections are effectively helping to bridge the gap in knowledge that arose due to the absence of inspections between December 1998 and November 2002.

More than 200 chemical and more than 100 biological samples have been collected at different sites. Three-quarters of these have been screened using our own analytical laboratory capabilities at the Baghdad Centre (BOMVIC). The results to date have been consistent with Iraq's declarations.

...

In my 27 January update to the Council, I said that it seemed from our experience that Iraq had decided in principle to provide cooperation on process, most importantly prompt access to all sites and assistance to UNMOVIC in the establishment of the necessary infrastructure. This impression remains, and we note that access to sites has so far been without problems, including those that had never been declared or inspected, as well as to Presidential sites and private residences.

...

How much, if any, is left of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and related proscribed items and programmes? So far, UNMOVIC has not found any such weapons, only a small number of empty chemical munitions, which should have been declared and destroyed. Another matter - and one of great significance - is that many proscribed weapons and items are not accounted for. To take an example, a document, which Iraq provided, suggested to us that some 1,000 tonnes of chemical agent were "unaccounted for". One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist. However, that possibility is also not excluded. If they exist, they should be presented for destruction. If they do not exist, credible evidence to that effect should be presented.

We are fully aware that many governmental intelligence organizations are convinced and assert that proscribed weapons, items and programmes continue to exist. The US Secretary of State presented material in support of this conclusion. Governments have many sources of information that are not available to inspectors. Inspectors, for their part, must base their reports only on evidence, which they can, themselves, examine and present publicly. Without evidence, confidence cannot arise.

Of course, at the time, we had all reached our conclusions long ago, and were happy to blithely assume that if Hans Blix couldn't find the weapons, he must be incompetent, and that if he reported that the Iraqis were co-operating, he must be a dupe.

The fact is that Blix performed his job superbly, and presented his conclusions factually and diplomatically. Perhaps if he had not, they would not have been so easy for us all to dismiss.