Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Technology Stocks : Novell (NOVL) dirt cheap, good buy? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lawrence Petkus who wrote (19119)	12/15/1997 7:23:00 AM
From: BP Ritchie	Respond to of 42771

It's CORBA, not Cobra. From what I've seen Novell's actions regarding Java are very likely to produce substantial benefit, with very little risk to Novell ... the bigger risk is undertaken by Sun. I'll look for the link info later today to see what this guy is talking about, but suspect that is only another MS-sponsored 'spin' as Java implements CORBA and does not compete against it. It might be as simple as the observation that Java will likely become the most popular CORBA implementation and will be required on all platforms that participate in the CORBA 'broker' networks. FWIW ... CORBA is an acronym. Common Object Request Broker Architecture ... essentially describes the 'rules' for the exchange of Common (multi-platform) Object (programming and/or data elements) that can be Requested from a Broker (repository of the objects) ... intended to be used in Network applications. Java is the first language that has been designed specifically for this purpose ... to use it completely requires the '100% pure Java' JVM that Sun is suing MicroSoft about. Microsoft Windows is the platform that most of the developers of Java object are expected to use for development, MSFT has recently 'replaced' some of the JVM support with the intention of preventing the developed code from running on other platforms, instead restricting the resulting runtime code to a Windows only JVM design. Most of the investment in Java 'components' is being made by IBM, in Java architecture & support by Sun ... the Java toolset that Novell uses is supplied (at very little cost) by Sun. The major benefit for vendors will actually be realized on all NON-MSFT Servers ... whichever company has the most servers will probably get the most benefit ... sure looks like a very good decision for Novell to me! And sure looks like a very important 'target' for MSFT FUD too!

To: Lawrence Petkus who wrote (19119)	12/15/1997 10:00:00 AM
From: BP Ritchie	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 42771

Hi Lawrence! I can't link to the URL you referenced, can you re-post it using cut & paste please? This URL might provide some additional insight into what all the fuss is about ... it's an opinion piece from one of the ZDnet writers: zdnet.com The major issue almost certainly is about Java-on-the-Server. MSFT has withdrawn it's support of the JVM support required to make it work as per the JavaSoft specification and substituted this with Windows only support, to all of the ISVs developing Java components this basically means that they are being forced by MSFT to target their products and components to pre-req Windows ... or signficantly increase their development effort and cost. To end users this basically means that they will now not be able to extend their existing NON-MSFT (effectively a broken MSFT promise) systems to use new Internet and Intranet components ... they will now be forced to migrate (or duplicate) their existing Databases to a Windows platform in order to use the components developed with MSFT's development tools ... If and only if they want to 'standardize' on Windows applications to run their businesses (not just their desktops). IMO ... this is a desperation move by MSFT, certain to piss off everyone that made plans based on the original MSFT 'Java commitment' to implement the same 'Industry Standard' that they just 'substituted' with a Windows only plan ... also likely to 'slow down' the entire networking software market ... a relatively common MSFT practice when then find that they cannot control the market, they are not usually so obvious though.

To: Lawrence Petkus who wrote (19119)	12/15/1997 10:00:00 PM
From: Scott C. Lemon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 42771

Hello Lawrence, I too am very interested in this area of CORBA and distributed objects. I am looking to see who the new up-and-coming companies are that might be worth investing in. I think that Novell will soon offer (with Moab) one of the strongest plays into this area ... just because of the potential numbers of platforms and the volume of data stored on NetWare servers. > Cobra being eaten by MS mongoose? (By now you know that it is CORBA ...) I believe that Microsoft has a few things that are causing it to re-think it's tactics and strategy for the future. CORBA is not something that Microsoft likes ... and it will try to play-down any value that corporations see in CORBA ... and there is some truth to what they say. > There is another battle in which I have more interest. It relates > to one of Eric's top picks in the executive suite. I forgot his > name, but he was in the forefront of the Cobra development group > and I believe he is currently the head of product development at > Novell. I think that Chris Stone is who you are talking about. So far I'm very impressed with his perspective, and I think he's in this to win. So far I know of several things that are happening that I would attribute to him. > Anyway, an article at webweek.com/1997/12/08/19971208-critic.html, > entitled, "A Critic of Cobra Knows Whereof He Speaks," states that > the development of Cobra is scattered, that Sun Microsystems > believes that Cobra is unnecessary because Java can perform its > functions, and that IBM and others are spending so much of their > resources on Java that they are not developing a unified Cobra > product that can effectively compete with with Microsoft's DCOM. I have read the article that was posted, and I can see his perspective. He does honestly say what he sees and believes. From what I have seen and worked with so far, I have to say that: 1. Java has RMI, this is the "Java way" to call a procedure on a remote machine. From my analysis, RMI is still in it's infancy and has numerous limitations - from security, to dynamic changes. It's easy to use, but very weak in enterprise applications. 2. CORBA is moving rapidly forward, but the only place that it is "widely" distributed is by Netscape! Netscape licensed and started to ship the Visigenics ORB with every browser. An ORB is the component that handles "connecting" a piece of client software to a software service. Netscape is shipping the ORB that is on your client ... Novell will be shipping a server-side ORB (also from Visigenics) that will allow client-software to utilize services on the NetWare platform using CORBA. 3. Microsoft is the king of abstraction. They have always played the tune of "write to our APIs and we'll connect you to everything." Which makes perfect sense. Their APIs only exist on their platform - Windows! If all apps are written to Windows, then they keep selling and upgrading Windows. Java is the first time that someone has "out-abstracted" Microsoft that I know of. What Sun did is release a technology and said "write to Java and your apps will run everywhere!" This begins the break from Windows. And Microsoft has seen major customers (who in my opinion are very smart) start to develop new software projects in Java. They are very smart because they realize that if they write to Java they can run on their existing platform - Windows - but they are investing in the freedom and the option to run elsewhere in the future if it makes sense. 4. The last part of the equation is now "how do I get my Java applications to run faster, and to communicate over a network, or the Internet?" The part about running faster is accomplished by breaking the application into smaller "objects" and allowing them to be distributed across a group of machines, rather than running them all in teh same machine. CORBA is the architecture that allows for the creation of distributed applications in a standards-based environment. It is also important to understand that CORBA objects can be developed that "wrapper" older software or data, and can run on legacy systems ... so CORBA allows me to develop objects that give my new applications to my existing data. When you combine Java, a new portable development craze, with CORBA (and IIOP), a standard way to "network" applications, you have a scenario that says "I can now develop applications that will run well on Windows, but allow me to easily migrate to the platform that makes sense if Windows doesn't keep up or Microsoft gets too demanding." And NetWare will be a fully compliant Java/CORBA/IIOP platform for the development of server-side applications. It will also offer a wide range of CORBA compliant services ... We are now looking at technologies that have the ability to revolutionize how software is developed ... breaking applications from being tied to platforms and APIs to being able to run where it makes sense. > I am a shareholder and not a technician. So my question is whether > Roger Sessions(a 5 year IBM Cobra developer) is just a MS lackey or > does he have a point? I think that he brings up some very valid points. But I don't see him say they can't be fixed. I also think that the credit that he gives to Microsoft and DCOM relate to the installed base and momentum. Which goes to say that if the momentum slows ... and people think about trusting their entire future in Microsoft ... then if there is a viable alternative ... And Novell (along with companies such as Netscape) is working to make sure that there is a viable alternative. And we are working to educate our customers on why it makes sense. Freedom to choose. Leave the door open for the future. It's not to say that you will move away from Windows ... it's saying that you can move away if you choose to. > What is this really about? Is Novell going head on into a storm > without any industry support? No ... there are many others trying to take the CORBA committee work and put it into real products. Netscape, Visigenics, ICL, and many others. Even awesome upstarts such as ObjectSpace. (Side note: Go look at objectspace.com to see some real amazing Java technology ... Voyager ... cool company ... incredible perspective ... I want to buy some stock!) On the customer side, people like Federal Express, Boeing, and CSX are all committed to Java and CORBA per recent articles. > Being head of product development, I would imagine he is pushing > Cobra big time and thar it is now a high priority at Novell, is > this so? Just wait for the next Moab beta ... ;-) > Can anyone else on this board illuminate this battle in the brewing > and its' implication for Novell: research for years in a > development pipeline or a product ready asset? I'm working with some people to try and demonstrate the real value of Java and CORBA ... Brainshare should be a really good event for this. > Thanks, > > Lawrence I love to try and think about, and explain, any of these technologies since I really do believe that they offer something that we have never seen on this scale before. > P.S. I realize you are not Eric Schmidt and have limits as to your > power and ability to access info. Thanks for any insight you can > provide. Hopefully there was something of value ... ;-) Scott C. Lemon