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To: JubilationT who wrote (67729)	7/2/2015 9:28:08 PM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 69300

"I doubt that you even read my reply to you. It does not seem as though you read it, and if you had, you seem to have missed my whole point." I read your post thoroughly. It is you who miss the point. There is nothing unique or innovative in your response. Do you think your response is better than the Pope's? Or greg or ee's? Or any of the 35,000 Christian sects who waste their time trying to be right? Maybe you take yourself too seriously? My point is that your point is one of many. It is not even a majority position. And for non-Christians (such as myself) it is a "point" suspended in thin air and anchored to tribal tales of stuff and nonsense. Here are a few self-serving opinions by other Christians with points to make. I am sorry I cannot give you the endorsement that you seem to need. But neither do I endorse any of the Christians who disagree with you. If you have some novel points to introduce, that would be interesting, at least. But your take on the afterlife has been well argued for centuries. You obviously embrace a form of annihilationism, and I would not be surprised to learn that you were a Seventh-Day Adventist. Afterlife Beliefs by Christian Denomination To illustrate the differences and commonalities on Christian beliefs about the afterlife, following is a selection of doctrinal statements from several different denominations and organizations. Assemblies of God: The resurrection of those who have fallen asleep in Christ and their translation together with those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord is the imminent and blessed hope of the church. The second coming of Christ includes the rapture of the saints, which is our blessed hope, followed by the visible return of Christ with His saints to reign on earth for one thousand years. This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel, and the establishment of universal peace. There will be a final judgment in which the wicked dead will be raised and judged according to their works. Whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life, together with the devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, will be consigned to the everlasting punishment in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. We, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness. Christianity Today Magazine: At the end of the age, the bodies of the dead shall be raised. The righteous shall enter into full possession of eternal bliss in the presence of God, and the wicked shall be condemned to eternal death. Evangelical Free Church of America: We believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead; of the believer to everlasting blessedness and joy with the Lord; of the unbeliever to judgment and everlasting conscious punishment. Friends United Meeting (Quaker): We believe, according to the Scriptures, that there shall be a resurrection from the dead, both of the just and of the unjust, (Acts 24:15) and that God hath appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ whom He hath ordained. (Acts 17:31) For, as saith the apostle, "We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10). We sincerely believe, not only a resurrection in Christ from the fallen and sinful state here, but a rising and ascending into glory with Him hereafter; that when He at last appears we may appear with Him in glory. But that all the wicked, who live in rebellion against the light of grace, and die finally impenitent, shall come forth to the resurrection of condemnation. And that the soul of every man and woman shall be reserved, in its own distinct and proper being, and shall have its proper body as God is pleased to give it. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; (1 Cor 15:44) that being first which is natural and afterward that which is spiritual. ... We believe that the punishment of the wicked and the blessedness of the righteousness shall be everlasting, according to the declaration of our compassionate Redeemer, to whom the judgment is committed, "These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (RV, Matt 25:46) Lutheran Church (Augsburg Confession, 1530): Also they [Lutheran churches] teach that at the Consummation of the World Christ will appear for judgment, and will raise up all the dead; He will give to the godly and elect eternal life and everlasting joys, but ungodly men and the devils He will condemn to be tormented without end. They condemn the Anabaptists, who think that there will be an end to the punishments of condemned men and devils. They condemn also others who are now spreading certain Jewish opinions, that before the resurrection of the dead the godly shall take possession of the kingdom of the world, the ungodly being everywhere suppressed. Mennonite Church in the USA: We believe that, just as God raised Jesus from the dead, we also will be raised from the dead. At Christ's glorious coming again for judgment, the dead will come out of their graves"--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." The righteous will rise to eternal life with God, and the unrighteous to hell and separation from God. Thus, God will bring justice to the persecuted and will confirm the victory over sin, evil, and death itself. We look forward to the coming of a new heaven and a new earth, and a new Jerusalem, where the people of God will no longer hunger, thirst, or cry, but will sing praises: "To the One seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever! Amen! Presbyterian Church in the USA: If there is a Presbyterian narrative about life after death, this is it: When you die, your soul goes to be with God, where it enjoys God's glory and waits for the final judgment. At the final judgment bodies are reunited with souls, and eternal rewards and punishments are handed out. As the Scots Confession notes, final judgment is also "the time of refreshing and restitution of all things."And it is clearly the case that both the Scots Confession and the Westminster Confession of Faith want to orient the present-day life of believers around this future. But the Bible spends more time focusing on new life here than on life after death. So do all our more recent confessions. Although the Confession of 1967 mentions life after death, it does so only briefly. Its focus is on new life now and on the church's ministry of reconciliation. Southern Baptist Convention: God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord. United Church of Christ: God promises to all who trust in the gospel forgiveness of sins and fullness of grace, courage in the struggle for justice and peace,the presence of the Holy Spirit in trial and rejoicing, and eternal life in that kingdom which has no end. United Methodist Church (on purgatory): The Romish doctrine concerning purgatory, pardon, worshiping, and adoration, as well of images as of relics, and also invocation of saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warrant of Scripture, but repugnant to the Word of God. Hellhttp://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/hellIn Christianity, hell is the place where unrepentant sinners go after this life. The Bible describes hell as eternal (Jude 7, 12-13) and punitive (e...

To: JubilationT who wrote (67729)	7/2/2015 9:35:36 PM
From: Solon	Respond to of 69300

Somewhere here is you. As I said...to me it is like discussing whether a unicorn wears pantyhose or knee socks. The bible is mostly a work of fiction, and the supernatural ideas put forth reveal the fears, ignorance, and naivety of primitive tribal man. So what do YOU do with all the "points" that other Christians make against your minority views?? In Christianity, hell is the place where unrepentant sinners go after this life. The Bible describes hell as eternal (Jude 7, 12-13) and punitive (e.g. Matt. 23:32, 2 Pet. 2:4). Hell is further described as a place of fire (e.g. Matt. 25:41), although there isn't consensus among Christians as to whether that imagery is intended to be literal or figurative. According to Jesus Christ, hell was originally intended for the Satan and demons (cf. Matt. 25:41). According to a Gallup Poll, 70% of Americans believe in hell. Belief in hell is highest among regular churchgoers: 92% of those who attend church weekly believe in hell, as do 74% of those who attend nearly weekly. Even among those who believe in hell, there are differences in how they interpret the biblical descriptions. Some believe that in hell people will literally burn forever. Others believe people will literally burn for a certain period of time, and then cease to exist (this view is called "annihilationism"). Still others believe that although hell is a place of punishment, the descriptions of fire are simply imagery meant to convey judgment. Hell in the Old and New TestamentsIn popular English Bible translations, the word "hell" is used to translate the Hebrew word Sheol, its Greek equivalent Hades, and another Greek word, Gehenna. Since most scholars believe the biblical authors are describing the same location in the afterlife with these terms, most English Bible translations opt to translate each one with the word "hell." There is, however, insight to be gleaned from understanding each of the terms individually, because they each have nuances and convey different aspects to the nature of hell. Sheol and HadesIn the Old Testament, Sheol, which is also sometimes translated "grave" or "pit," denotes the underworld or the place of departed spirits. It is important to understand that the word Sheol doesn't always refer to hell, but sometimes simply refers to "the grave" (i.e. death). It is in this sense that the righteous are described as going to Sheol (e.g. Psalm 16:10, 30:3, and Isaiah 38:10). Yet other times, Sheol refers to the eternal destination of the wicked (e.g. Num. 16:33, Job 24:19, Psalm 9:17). Context determines the meaning of Sheol. The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is the Greek term "Hades," which many popular English Bibles translate as "hell." Jesus uses the word Hades to describe a place of eternal punishment (Matt. 11:23). In other contexts, it refers to "the grave" or the location a person goes prior to resurrection (e.g. Acts 2:27), either for eternal judgment or eternal paradise. GehennaGehenna (i.e. "the Valley of Hinnom") is the Greek translation of a Hebrew word, which refers to an actual place on earth. The identity of Hinnom is not known for certain, but scholars have suggested it is an area southwest of Jerusalem near the Cedron. Gehenna is mentioned in Joshua 15:8 and 18:16, and in 2 Kings, it is described as a place of human sacrifice (16:3, 21:6; cf. 23:13-14) that was polluted (23:10-12). In later Jewish thought, Gehenna was a place of punishment for apostates and other great sinners (e.g., 1 Enoch 27:2, 90:26; 2 Esdras 7:36-38). A statement dating to 1200 AD that fires were continually kept burning in the Valley of Hinnom is generally regarded as reliable, although no earlier reference has yet been found. [4] Hell in the Old TestamentThe idea of hell (as understood in Christianity) is only hinted at in the Old Testament. A possible mention hell in the Old Testament is this prophecy about the end times: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2, NIV) Another notable passage that likely contributes to Christian imagery of hell is Isaiah 66:24, which also refers to the end times: "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (NIV) Other passages that speak of the afterlife seem to indicate extinction of the soul after death (see, e.g., Ecclesiastes 9:10). Rabbis have generally the taught the existence of a hell-like place for the unrighteous, but many Jews, both historical and modern, do not believe in hell or an afterlife. (See Jewish Beliefs: Afterlife.) Hell in the New TestamentIn the New Testament, the notion of hell is more clearly expressed, but still not in a systematic way. In many cases, "death" and "destruction" are the only mentioned penalties for rejecting God (e.g., Matthew 7:13, John 3:16, Acts 4:12, Romans 6:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, James 1:15). New Testament passages that have suggested eternal torment to Christians include the following: "Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22, quoting Jesus) "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.") "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, quoting Jesus) "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42, quoting Jesus) "Throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Parable of the Talents, Matthew 25:30) "Then he [the King] will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew 25:41) "The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." (James 3:6) "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15) "The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile...the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulpher. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) The Doctrine of Hell in the Church FathersIn the church fathers (post-New-Testament Christian leaders and theologians), the doctrine of hell is understood as as a place of eternal torment, which is generally seen as physical in nature: [5] "The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment." (Pseudo-Barnabas, c. 70-130 AD) "You should fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the eternal fire. It will afflict those who are committed to it even to the end." (Letter to Diognetus, c. 125-200) "[The martyrs] despised all the torments of this world, redeeming themselves from eternal punishment by the suffering of a single hour.... For they kept before their view escape from that fire which is eternal and will never be quenched." (Martyrdom of Polycarp, c. 135) "Sinners will be consumed because they sinned and did not repent." (Shepherd of Hermas, c. 150) "Those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death. However, those who have known God and have seen his mighty works, but still continue in evil, will be chastised doubly, and will die forever." (Shepherd of Hermas, c. 150) "We believe...that every man will suffer punishment in eternal fire according to the merits of his deed. ... Sensation remains to all who have ever lived, and eternal punishment is laid up." (Justin Martyr, c. 160) "Hell [Gehenna] is a place where those who have lived wickedly are to be punished." (Justin Martyr, c. 160) "Some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire." (Justin Martyr, c. 160) "We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain." (Tatian, c. 160) "We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one...or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil." (Athenagoras, c. 175) "To the unbelieving and despisers...there will be anger and wrath, tribulation and anguish. At the end, everlasting fire will possess such men." (Theophilus, c. 180) "Eternal fire is prepared for sinners. The Lord has plainly declared this and the rest of the Scriptures demonstrate it." (Irenaeus, c. 180) "All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery." (Clement of Alexandria, c. 195; from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment) "We [Christians] alone make a real effort to attain a blameless life. We do this under the influence of... the magnitude of the threatened torment. For it is not merely long-enduring; rather, it is everlasting." (Tertullian, c. 197) "Gehenna... is a reservoir of secret fire under the earth for purposes of punishment." (Tertullian, c. 197) "There is neither limit nor termination of these torments. There, the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them. It feeds on them and nourishes them. ... However, no one except a profane man hesitates to believe that those who do not know God are deservedly tormented." (Mark Minucius Felix, c. 200) However, some early church fathers, such as Origen of Alexandria and Gregory of Nyssa, questioned the eternality of hell and the literal interpretation of it as a fiery place. [6] Modern Christian Views of HellIn many modern Christian views, hell is seen as a logical extension of the free will of mankind to reject God's gracious advances. Some modern Christians question hell's eternal nature in favor of some form of universalism (i.e. that all are saved in the end) or annihilationism (i.e. that wicked souls are eventually destroyed). The following is a sampling of the positions of various Christian denominations on the issue of hell. It is impossible to describe the glory and splendor of heaven and the terror and torment of hell. Whether taken literally or figuratively, the meaning is the same: Hell is a place where one will experience total separation from God; heaven enjoys the total presence of God. Knowing that this is the horrible end awaiting the wicked, the Assemblies of God is strongly motivated to win the lost before it is too late. (Assemblies of God) To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." (Catechism of the Catholic Church) The statement of Christ in Matthew 25, and elsewhere, are taken at face value. It is believed that after death each man must come before God in judgment and that he will be judged according to the deeds done while he lived (Hebrews 9:27). After judgment is pronounced he will spend eternity either in heaven or hell. (Churches of Christ) We believe that glorious and everlasting life is assured to all who savingly believe in, and obediently follow, Jesus Christ our Lord; and that the finally impenitent shall suffer eternally in hell. (Church of the Nazarene) This hope for the final salvation of humanity and the eternal universal restitution of all things in heaven and on earth ... is drawn from the unlimited promise of the Gospel and the magnitude of God's grace made known to the world through Christ. (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) We believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead; of the believer to everlasting blessedness and joy with the Lord; of the unbeliever to judgment and everlasting conscious punishment. (Evangelical Free Church of America) The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. ... The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy ... the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America) Common arguments for an eternal hellAmong the common arguments advanced for the existence of an eternal hell are these: Words and pictures in the New Testament imply finality. The doctrine of hell has been believed for a long time by eminent theologians. Offers of pardon are restricted to the present world. The judgment occurs at the close of the redemptive era, and hence is final. Character tends to final permanence. The conscience expects and demands retribution in another life. [7] Common arguments against an eternal hellCommonly presented arguments against the existence of an eternal hell include: Words and pictures in the New Testament imply death and destruction (i.e., annihilation). "Eternal punishment" can refer to results that are eternal, not an eternal process. Vindictive justice is not compatible with the God of love and compassion revealed in the New Testament. The punishment does not fit the crime (i.e. non-eternal sin and disbelief). [8] Hell contradicts the Christian assertion of the final victory of God over evil. [9] References "Hell." F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingstone, eds., The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 3rd ed. (Oxford UP, 1997), p. 748-49. "hell." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2005. Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service. 17 Jan. 2005 <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9039897>. "Sheol." The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 3rd ed., p. 1494. "Gehenna." The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 3rd ed., p. 657. "Eternal Punishments and Rewards." David W. Bercot, ed., A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs (Hendrickson, 1998), pp. 241-43. Joseph Hontheim, "Hell." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIV (Robert Appleton, 1910). <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm> "Future Punishment." The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. IV, p. 415. <http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php3?a=schaff&b=encyc04&p=415>. Ibid. and Timothy R. Phillips, "Hell." Walter A. Elwell, ed., Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology (Baker Books, 1996). <http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T336> Alister McGrath, Christian Theology: An Introduction, 2nd ed. (Blackwell, 1997), pp. 553-54.