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Pastimes : SI Grammar and Spelling Lab -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Bill Ulrich who wrote (271)	1/2/1998 9:00:00 PM
From: Jack Clarke	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 4711

Bill: I can't argue with either of your propositions. I'll assume you are correct and will try to verify it later. Jack

To: Bill Ulrich who wrote (271)	1/2/1998 10:23:00 PM
From: Janice Shell	Respond to of 4711

MrB-- He went to the store; dogs bark loudly. Taht's awful. Worse yet is : "He went to the store; however, the doges barked loudly". Janice

To: Bill Ulrich who wrote (271)	1/3/1998 12:58:00 AM
From: Jeffrey S. Mitchell	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 4711

MrB, I agree with your assessment of the proper use for semicolons. Hey, but what about dashes and dots? I am not exactly sure what the "book" says about semicolons, but I tend to use them for two related statements, as opposed to two separate sentences, when I am trying to clarify a statement without affecting the tone of the paragraph. Sounds confusing; I know. To use your example: "He went to the store; hungry for donuts was he"... If, say, the next sentence were about the guy going to the cleaners then I would use a semicolon as I would want to keep the focus of the paragraph on the "where" and not the "why". If, however, the next sentence were about what he did at the donut shop then I might be tempted to use separate sentences. As for dashes ("--"), I would use them to clarify or call attention to an important point. For example: "He went to the store-- he had no other choice." OK, maybe that's a stretch but you get the point-- right? And, lastly, I would use dots ("...") to show a disjointed connection or to express some sort of confusion or stream of consciousness. For example: "He went to the store... at least he said he did." But, hey, I program computers for a living... so what do I know? Does this make sense to anyone? If not-- tough; try and stop me... if you dare. (gg) - Jeff

To: Bill Ulrich who wrote (271)	1/3/1998 5:21:00 AM
From: opalapril	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 4711

Re: semicolons. I read somewhere (Fowler?) that what follows a semicolon need not always be a complete sentence. Example # 1: "Every day infantile business majors, like boys at play, fill SI's message boards with their silly games of pretense. Indian Shorts whoop and holler around the circled wagons of Cowboy Longs who bravely defend their portfolios of womenfolk and children; all for nought by day's end when Mother calls them home for dinner and, sadly, reality returns." Example # 2: Such a sentence could be separated into two complete sentences. In that case, the second sentence might read, "At day's end, Mother calls them home for dinner; sadly, reality returns." Re: commas. You are right. They are optional when used to separate subordinate clauses in complex sentences. General style books advise there are no hard and fast rules. It is largely a matter of the writer's intended rhythm and personal preference; not so, however, when listing three, four, or more items in a series. In such cases a comma is required in front of every listed item except the first and last. Example # 1: Great thread, Bill, but hopeless task. Have you noticed that even search engines are programmed to assume users can't spell, write grammatically, or think clearly? Example # 2: The only hope for the language is that purists like us give up, change or die.

To: Bill Ulrich who wrote (271)	1/3/1998 7:21:00 AM
From: Jack Clarke	Respond to of 4711

Hi Bill: I thought it over and looked it up. Amazingly, my library is such a mess that I can't find a text on English grammar! There's got to be one somewhere! All I could find was a workbook my wife used in high school back in the early sixties. Anyway, here goes: A semicolon separates two principal clauses (each having subject and verb) that are too closely related to be separate sentences. I think your examples are appropriate. It does, in effect, replace the coordinating conjunction which would ordinarily be used to separate two independent clauses. The semicolon is also used to separate clauses when the second one begins with therefore, however, hence etc. "He shouted loudly; still the man did not respond." You could have replaced the semicolon with a coordinating conjunction: and, but. Comma usage is more complicated. You have to use a comma before a coordinating conjuntion separating two independent clauses: "John got up, and he walked away quickly." But omitting the subject (he) in the second clause makes it a dependent clause, and therefore the comma is not required. "John got up and walked away quickly." Other comma uses are more vaguely described. It should follow a very long introductory adverbial phrase: "While we worked in the yard and picked up all the trash and looked for the missing part, Sam went to the store." With regard to two ideas conjunctively expressed, I think you are referring to "series". I think you are correct about the optional comma with only two in the series. Jack