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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Grainne who wrote (14655)	1/3/1998 3:55:00 AM
From: Krowbar	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Nice post of Professor Hakeem's work Christine. For those of you who came late to this debate on the Nazis, this all started about 2 months ago with an article in our editorial section, and probably yours, by the Boston Globe writer Jeff Jacoby making an attempt to revise history by blaming the rise of the Nazis and the Holocaust on the lack of belief in god, which is of course pure bullshit. Look for Freddy to now ridicule Professor Hakeem and Christine rather than address the points that were brought up. The bottom line is that Hitler's ideas were an evolution of Martin Luther's and he was supported by most of the church leaders of that time. Del

To: Grainne who wrote (14655)	1/3/1998 11:41:00 AM
From: Jack Clarke	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Christine: Churches, like governments are made up of human beings, and as such are prone to all the foibles of human nature. Read the Constitution of the USSR, for example. It could have been written by Jefferson, guaranteeing freedom of the press, religion, etc. The government just chose to ignore it. Churches, sadly, have done the same thing. None is without guilt. This quote is from the preface to the first Book of Common Prayer (1549), after the break of the Church of England from Rome: There was never any thing by the wit of man so well devised, or sure established, which in continuance of time hath not been corrupted; So true. This does not mean the the principles the churches or the governments were built on or which they are supposed to stand for are invalid. Politicization of any organization tends to precede its loss of integrity -- our Congress, for example, but that's another story. Jack

To: Grainne who wrote (14655)	1/4/1998 10:07:00 PM
From: JF Quinnelly	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Bormann is ONE Nazi. His writings are no more the final authority on anything than anyone else's (especially mine or yours). You ought to stick with a subject you know something about; Bormann was a major figure in the Nazi Party, and his opinions carried a lot of weight. Comparing Bormann with Hakeem might make sense, but not in the way you intend. It's mostly laughable. Here's how Britannica decribes Bormann: "Bormann, Martin, powerful party leader in Nazi Germany, one of Adolf Hitler's closest lieutenants. An avowed and vocal pan-German in his youth, Bormann participated in right-wing German Free Corps activities after the close of World War I. Bormann was imprisoned in 1924 for participation in a political murder, and after his release he joined the National Socialists. He became head of the Nazi press in Thuringia in 1926 and from 1928 held posts in the high command of the Sturmabteilung (Storm Troopers). In 1933 he became chief of staff to the deputy fhrer, Rudolf Hess. On May 12, 1941, Hitler appointed Bormann to fill the post of head of the party chancellery, succeeding Hess after the latter had made his quixotic flight to Scotland. Bormann thus became head of the administrative machinery of the Nazi Party, and through intrigue, party infighting, and his shrewd manipulation of Hitler's weaknesses and eccentricities, he became a shadowy but extremely powerful presence in the Third Reich. He controlled all acts of legislation and all party promotions and appointments, and he had a broad influence on domestic policy questions concerning internal security. He controlled the personal access of others to Hitler and drew up the Fhrer's schedule and appointments calendar, insulating him from the independent counsel of his subordinates. Bormann was a rigid and unbending guardian of Nazi orthodoxy; he was a major advocate of the persecution and extermination of Jews and Slavs, and he played a role in expanding the German slave labour program. He disappeared shortly after the death of Hitler, and it was presumed that he was either dead or in hiding. He was indicted Aug. 29, 1945, along with other Nazi leaders, on charges of war crimes and was found guilty and sentenced to death in absentia by the International Military Tribunal at Nrnberg on Oct. 1, 1946...."