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Pastimes : And The 7th Angel Sounded -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Scott Shumaker who wrote (143)1/6/1998 11:43:00 PM
From: Alan Markoff  Respond to of 609
 
Sott,
You might want to look at the Ask God thread to get alot of information on that topic. Why would a believer need to be Israel has He not made us all fearfully and wonderfully. Paul says the Jews are Israel of the New Testament as well referring to himself as well as Peter.
Nancy



To: Scott Shumaker who wrote (143)1/7/1998 12:01:00 AM
From: Jane Hafker  Respond to of 609
 
Scott, God did give us a good brain, and they work, so we can use them to figure this stuff out.

I've heard a lot of different interpretations of what this means. I don't know why, though, since apparently it means the 12 tribes of Isreal without metaphor or symbolism.

To list 12 of the original tribes of Isreal, by the pen of John, and by the eyes of John, and from the mouth of God, and to then believe that God was creating a bizarre and complex verbal holagram (sp.) in which the sons of Jacob (?) forgive me, I don't have time to look it all up to be sure what I'm saying
is right, but Jacob was their father, right? And to then expect believers 2000 years later to translate the 12 tribes of Jews, most of which still exist today to some degree I'm sure, into various factions of Europeans and Chinese, etc., well. Is it too much to ask to just believe God told John the 12 tribes of Isreal, named them and counted a number from each one, and John wrote it down?

Just a thought as we struggle to make it anything but what it says, and I 'm saying that because it just went on for a month on Ask God.
John really warns everybody with a strange vengance unlike John, so gentle and sweet it is hard to believe he ever caught fish with the rest of the blue collar workers. I think they are the 12 tribes of Isreal. Just like the original 12 tribes of Isreal. To translate them into gentile 2000 years later does make sense? Does not make sense?

Huh? §¨§ Just asking the question, but never to start an argument, just to keep on the truth of the matter if possible. If anything, I totally believe this discounts the theories held by certain anglos that shall not be singled out that after Jesus' death, Father God and Jesus no longer like Jews. They just liked gentiles, or any pagan devil worshipper in the world, but not Jews.
(Now I'm being silly, of course.)



To: Scott Shumaker who wrote (143)1/7/1998 6:23:00 AM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 609
 
"I have come to ask, could Israel, as mentioned in Rev. be referring to all Christians? The Jews were the Israel of the Old Testament."

Yes, Isreael does refer to all Chritians under the New Covenant. The 144,000 Israelites spoken of in Revelation are unique and reveals a deep mystery the Lord. The Lord had choosen Abraham and had made a covenant with Abraham and his SEED singular. Many in the Old Covenant era as well as many in the New Covenant era have misunderstood the meaning of the singular form of the word seed. Paul tells us that the promises were to the SEED singlar, and "seeds" plural, and that SEED was Christ. So the ultimate, and all consuming promises of God would find their fulfillment in the SEED of Abraham through the son of David---Jesus Christ. Abraham was to bring forth the SEED through His progeny who would become the God-Manand save mankind from their sins.

Throughout the Old Testament era, the word Jew or Israelite had a dual meaning. All those born to the twelve sons of Jacob and circumcised, were considered Israelite. This was the first meaning of the word Israelite.
The second meaning of the word Israelite is restricted to those who have the faith of Abraham. There are virtualy hundreds of examples of this duality in the Prophets and Psalms. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had given them promises that He would redeem the remnanat of the descendants of Abraham who possessed the faith of Abraham. God also promised Abraham that He would always maintain a remnant of TRUE ISRAELITEs--those with the faith of Abraham--in the nation of Israel until the Messiah would come. All of the Prophets repeated these promises to the remnant of Israel, meaning those Israelites who truly had the faith of ABraham and not just a circumcision in the flesh or the bilogical DNA such as Esau and Ishmael.
As an illustration of this point, conside Elijah when he surveyed the entire nation of Israel for faith. Elijah could not find one TRUE ISRAELITE who worshipped God in the Spirit. There were many circumcised people who called themselves Israelite, but he could not find one who truly had the faith of Abraham and worshipped the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in faith.
God showed Elijah that he was mistaken. Out of a population of over 5 million Israelites in the flesh, God told Elijah that their were 7000 who worshipped the true God and did not bend the knee to Baal.
St. Paul reminds us in Romans of the same principle when he is explain the mystery of who the real Israelites are--the remanant of Jews who accepted and worshipped Jesus.

So, in the Old TEstament, we had the bilogical descendant of Abraham such as Ishmael, Esaus, Isaac and Jacob and we had the children of ABraham, those who possessed the faith of abrahmam such as Jacob and Isaac. Notice that they are all the seed of Abraham but only those with the faith of Abraham are called the children of Abraham.
This is the mystery contained in the above verses of Revelation.

God fulfilled all His promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when He sent Jesus to redeem His people, those with the faith of Abraham, recreate them in His image through faith in Jesus, and establish an eternal Kingdom with Jesus sitting on the throne of DAvid for all eternity.

When Jesus came, the remnant of the true Israelites accepted Jesus over several decades and thus the promises of God to Abraham under the Old Covenant were fulfilled and Jesus became a light unto the Gentiles, the glory of His People Israel--those with the faith of Abraham. It was during these several decades between the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus and the destruction of the Temple that these 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel were saved. This 144,000 became God's ordained and anointed missionaries to estabish His New Covenant Church---who were both the seed of Abraham in the flesh and also the REAL ISRAELITES of the spirit, thus fulfilling all of Gods promises to Abraham.

These 144,000 Israelites formed the remanant of Israel who went out into the world and converted the entire world to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Every nation came to these "Jews" and held to their skirts to learn of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They established the Christian Church of the New Covenant as both a fulfillment of the Old Covenant and a continuation of the faith of Abraham that was present in the Old Covenant.

John is looking at the end of the age when the great multitudes forming the fruits of those early Jewish--Israelite missionaries who gave their lives to covert the world to Jesus Christ--the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Together they form the great throng in heaven who have washed their robes in the Blood of the Lamb and are now giving priases to our God for their salvation.

May the Holy Spirit inlighten the hearts of those who hunger for righteouness and truth.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Chapter: Rev.7

1: And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four
winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried
with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our
God in their foreheads.

4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty
and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5: Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve
thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6: Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve
thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7: Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve
thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8: Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve
thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and
kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white
robes, and palms in their hands;


10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto
the Lamb.

11: And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell
before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12: Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and
might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white
robes? and whence came they?

14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of
great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he
that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any
heat.

17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living
fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.



To: Scott Shumaker who wrote (143)1/7/1998 10:00:00 AM
From: Sidney Reilly  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 609
 
Hi Scott,
You're right that the born again gentiles are sons of Abraham (Gal. 3:7) because we are believers by faith as Abraham is (Gal. 3:9).
The remnant in Revelation though I think is referring to actual Jews who have accepted Jesus who are here in the time of the last days. The reason I believe they are here now is because God interupts the unfolding of the events of the last days to seal these 144,000, it seems very literal with the naming of the tribes (Christians have never been associated with any particular tribe).
Romans 9:27
"And Isaiah cried out concernibg Israel," Though the numbers of the sons of Israel be as the sands of the sea it, is the remnant that will be saved."

The reason for this Paul explains in Romans 9:30-33.

Have a great day,

Bob




To: Scott Shumaker who wrote (143)1/7/1998 10:25:00 AM
From: Sidney Reilly  Respond to of 609
 
Hi Scott,
The reference again to the 144,000 in Rev. 14:1-5 is curious and I don't know why it says the Lamb (Jesus) is on Mt. Zion with the 144,000 and they learn a new song that only they can learn. In verse 3 it says they are singing before the throne and the four living creatures and the elders. The throne, four living creatures and the elders are in God's Temple in heaven. Aren't they? So they are no longer on the earth but are taken up to sing before God?

Have a good one,

Bob