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To: Robert Graham who wrote (2329)1/11/1998 11:25:00 AM
From: TFF  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 12617
 
Bob:*necissary*>>>>necessary.

I usually don't correct spelling but you used it too many times;)

Cheers!

P.S. if there was a hidden meaning to the spelling please let me know:)



To: Robert Graham who wrote (2329)1/11/1998 5:54:00 PM
From: Richard Estes  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 12617
 
I was wondering how many people here are actually DAYtrading? Selling by the close on 80% of trades?



To: Robert Graham who wrote (2329)1/11/1998 6:07:00 PM
From: Richard Estes  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 12617
 
"So maybe the decision to hold has to do with how much of a gain you end up making on a stock before the end of the day. Is this the case? Is this what makes this risk manageable for you?"

Then how do you get the nerve to stay after you lose an 1/8 of a point or a profit of an 1/8 of a point during the day. There would be less risk! if you bought and sold on .13 profit and loss, you would lose slower.



To: Robert Graham who wrote (2329)1/11/1998 6:07:00 PM
From: steve goldman  Respond to of 12617
 
Discipline will rule the day!
Robert,

Many of suggestions and advice I try to provide regarding trading, trading strategies, market operations, etc. are geared toward the novice trader as well as the more experienced. Quite simply, the position I hold as head trader at my firm, gives me a base of experience that most "online", "non-broker/dealer" don't have. Not for lack of skill but for lack of exposure. After all, dealing with 100+ trades each day for clients and a handful for my own accounts, dealing with the nasdaq terminal the superdot terms, dealing with other professionals on Wall Street, trading against them on the electronic systems or by phone based systems, I run into things that many on these threads will never experience.

I have never tried to state that any one particular method or strategy is always correct. I would never be so bold since it quite simply is not how the markets work. The markets never do what you think they will do.

What I can say, from my experience, is that no trader, novice or experienced, will prosper long-term without discipline, true and hard committment to trading strategies. Rock-hard disciplines means you sell a stock every so often just before it goes on a 12 point tear and means you miss gap openings the next day. What it also meansis you don't end up with an ORCL, a VVUS, a Centennial Technology, etc. stocks that get absolutely crushed, stocks that if you had a reasonable holding you would be ok, but if you had a large, concentraded holding in, such as traders must have to prosper on relatively smaller moves, you could be out of business.

As a business person in a retail business, you would never load up your store, 400% in debt with one particular product, LET ALONE ONE THAT HADN't BEEN SELLING WELL, IN A BAD MARKET.

By taking stocks home, day traders lose their ability to control their investments. They CANNOT manage risks by taking home holdings. Yes, they could buy puts or short a competitor, etc. but they are still unreasonably exposed on a leveraged position.

The guy's name is slipping me right now, but it was all over Barrons. The hedge fund trader who went 150% into the market the day BEFORE the 550 crash, was scurrying when the market was down 200 the next day at the home, liquidating, and was out of business as the market rallied up 220 at the end of the day. He gambled , his risked it all and he lost....as a professional, trying to make a career of this, you don't risk it all. That's flat-out reckless. You take a disciplined approach. You say that I would be wlling to accepts profits of only xx dollars to know that I won't get put out of business the next day.
You know how hard it is to get the 1/4s, 3/8s and 1/2 . Its defeating to work that hard for those numbers to get smacked around 10 or 15 points on a disaster.

Don, on occassion has made refernce to the fact that I predominantly don't trade my own account. he is entirely correct. for the most part, trades for my own account are less than 5% of the trades that I probably execute each year. Anyone who knows me or my firm knows that we don't make market, don't act as principal and treat client's trades as though they were our own. It is a unique approach in the current marketplace. yet, the concepts don't change.

Many, many times, I have had trades go against me and I have wanted to "take a shot" and double down. Investments, long term stuff, sometmes goes against you and you want to do the same. You know you shouldn't. The books say you shouldn't. The 100% ideal trader, wouldn't, so do you be swayed by emotions. Do the right, the ideal thing every single time and you will prevail.. You won't hit any homeruns, and hitting the singles will be pretty boring, but you will prosper.

How could you prudently invest 400% of your money (the money in the trading account) into two stocks which have been acting poorly in a bad market which you feel is geting worse? The answer is...because Don lacked discpline with this trade or he is simply a wild trader. No new trader, nor any experienced trader should use this in their model.

Regards,
steve@yamner.com
yamner.com



To: Robert Graham who wrote (2329)1/11/1998 9:48:00 PM
From: Eric P  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 12617
 
Bob:

<Holding positions overnight...>

WOW, that was quite a post. Twenty questions, I believe. I'll try to do my best to respond to them.

First, let me repeat that I do not personally hold positions overnight. However, I know that some "daytraders" believe that a stock that shows strong movement during the day (+3-5 pts??) will likely continue its momentum during the first 30 minutes of trading on the open.

I am a very firm believer that you must develop a trading plan AND follow it. I have not tested the expected returns of next-day follow-through on this type trade. However, I would certainly test any overnight holding methods before taking this added risk.

Backtesting provides two key measures for a system: Expected average gain, and risk (largest loss, largest drawdown, standard deviation of returns, etc.). I rate my systems based on the best Sharpe Ratio (Average gain / standard deviation of trades). I also like to do my backtesting using at least 30 days of data and 200+ trades to increase the chance that the backtested results will match future results.

So to summarize my thoughts... Do not take any uninformed risks. ==> This can be daytrading, position trading, overnight holding or anything else. It is senseless to put hard earned money on the line until you are confident that your system gives you an edge in the market. Otherwise, you are merely gambling and doomed to failure (==> unless you trade within the limits of your entertainment budget, in which case, trading and gambling are okay).

To become informed of the risk of any proposed trading strategy: Backtest it, or in the alternative, paper trade with it. Both of these methods will give you a rough idea for the expected returns/losses and risks associated with your new-found system. One additional thought: Be very conservative in your testing to account for the realistic likelihood of your order being executed, commission/fees, etc.

Hope this helps,
-Eric