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Politics : The Trump Presidency -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Katelew who wrote (83701)	7/15/2018 10:15:30 PM
From: zzpat	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 365074

Ukraine became an independent country, but Crimea was designated an "autonomous region". "When Ukraine held a referendum on independence in December 1991, 54 percent of Crimean voters favored independence from Russia. Crimea agreed to remain part of Ukraine, but with significant autonomy (including its own constitution and legislature and – briefly – its own president)." The vote in 14 was most likely as corrupt as Brexit and Trump - controlled by Russia.

To: Katelew who wrote (83701)	7/15/2018 11:08:32 PM
From: TimF	1 Recommendation Recommended By CentralParkRanger Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 365074

Crimea being autonomous meant that it was to an extend self governing. It doesn't imply that it had a constitutional right to secede. It doesn't say it doesn't have such a right either, it just doesn't connect to the point strongly either way. Then the military coup took place. Military rebels armed and backed by the US and the EU overthrew the Ukrainian government. More of a mass uprising than a coup. As for "backing" by the US and EU, that amounted to basically resources to get their message out not arms and military intelligence. and undertook a straightforward election A vote after an invasion and occupation, with the voters for the other side of the issue suppressed. And the invasion by a nation that had specifically agreed to "Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty and the existing borders." and "Refrain from the threat or use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine." But overtime, the slant became "Russian annexation of Crimea", as though Russia came in militarily and conquered the Crimean people, forcefully taking the landmass. Which is what happened. Yes some of the people wanted that to happen, others were happy or at least accepting afterwords, but it was still a straight out invasion for conquest against another sovereign nation violating not only the normal international norms against such things but specific guarantees by Russia made in exchange for Ukraine giving up nukes. He didn't take it in the first place. Sure he did. And it never was a fully legal part of Ukraine. It was indeed fully legally part of Ukraine. US states have a degree of autonomy. In the early days of the US, under the Articles of Confederation, they had a greater degree of autonomy than Crimea had. If the British had decided they hadn't had enough of the Revolutionary War and had taken Maine in 1785, then held a vote (after shipping over people from England for the vote and suppressing the pro-US side) which went for integration in to the UK, would you say "that's ok Maine was never a fully legal part of the US"?