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To: Albert V who wrote (6043)	1/16/1998 2:26:00 AM
From: Terry Swift	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116764

Albert: As someone who lives in North Dakota and shares a border with you I can assure you its not just the rich and famous in Canada availing themselves of health care in the US. My wife is a registered nurse (now out of hospital nursing) and you wouldn't believe what Canadian citizens from Winnipeg and other cities and towns close to the border will go through to get into a hospital in Grand Forks, Minot, Fargo or Bismarck under circumstances which require the Canadian system to pick up the tab. From what we've heard from Canadians and professional health care workers in ND, the Canadian system is great if your health problems are minor but if you need heart bypass surgery or a similar critical procedure you're in deep doo-doo. Long lines is the rule based on what we've heard. The Columbia Mall in Grand Forks is 'heart-attack-haven' for Winnipeg citizens with heart problems. A very common occurance is Winnipeg citizens that need bypass surgery drive to Grand Forks at the onset of angina discomfort and hang around the mall (the Target store is the preferred waiting area from which to call) until angina pain is severe. They then call the Grand Forks Medical Center which is only a few blocks away, report their angina pain, an ambulance picks them up, they have their heart bypass surgery done, and because it is an emergency situation, the Canadian system picks up the tab. An emergency is the only circumstance under which the Canadian system will pay for any procedures here in the US unless, of course, its something for which they've been referred down here for by a doctor in the system, but that kind of referral is difficult, if not impossible, to get. The average US citizen can't believe anyone would risk the drive while experiencing angina pain but for the Canadian citizen who's surgery is scheduled 6 months away there is no risk because (s)he can't get anything done for 6 months anyway so they take their meds and wait it out in Winnipeg (all the while hoping the big one doesn't happen before their 6 months is up) or drive to North Dakota, Minnesota, etc. and get into a hospital while still experiencing their symptoms. Happens all the time. Also, the salary caps on your doctors are a disaster for your system. They're a great benefit; however, to our system. I can name a few excellent doctors in the city I live in that moved here from Canada because they can earn several times as much as they would in Canada while working fewer hours. I'm sure the same is true of many other US cities. They don't come here only for more money. Doctors are doctors because they want to cure people and the Canadian system doesn't give them as many tools or facilitites as the US system. An example is diagnostic equipment. There are more MRI machines in any large US city than there are in the entire country in Canada. I'm not at all familiar with the Canadian health care system but socialized medicine has never worked in any country in the world. I don't know why it would in Canada. I have traveled to Canada often. You have a beautiful country with wonderful, friendly people. Traveling in Canada is always a great pleasure but I hope I never have a serious health problem while I'm there. Take care. Terry

To: Albert V who wrote (6043)	1/16/1998 6:57:00 AM
From: Mark Bartlett	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116764

OFF TOPIC. Albert, <<Mark as a fellow Canadian, from what I have heard the medical system in USA isn't all bad. There is something called medicaid which is for the poor and the elderly, the government covers the cost.>> I was not suggesting that it was all bad - that was not my intent. If it came across that way, then let me apologize. The point I was trying to make was, so-called "socialized medicine" is not the evil that it has been portrayed to be. <<Perhaps an American can elaborate on how it works. >> I would be interested in a more indepth explanation, too. Despite my training and background, I am very much opened to having any misconceptions that I carry, corrected .... but goldsnow is right - it should be moved to a new location ..... doea a topic like this have a home anywhere on SI? <<Funny, whenever a rich and famous Canadian gets a desease, like the premier from quebec who had cancer (can't remember his name- Johnson?) they head straight to the states for treatment. Maybe they know something we don't?> Well .... I would not agree that "whenever a rich Canadian .... " whom you are referring to, is the late Premier Bourassa ... he has a particular type of skin cancer. There was a physician (a doctor Levine, I believe) down in the states doing experimental treatment with a treatment that modifies the bodies own immune system using interlukins. <<Regarding socialism in Canada, well, I am a welfare worker, and the social destruction created by some policies created by well meaning socialists have always amazed me.>> Agree .... working in the public health system myself, I appreciate there is a lot of room for improvement. My brother is a social worker ... he'd be the first to agree. Our system is far from perfect - and it _is the "well meaning" but often misguided policies of some groups that muck it up. But .... I would rather (as I suspect you would) try and improve the model, than chuck out the baby with the bath water. <<p.s. I have seen some places in the States where the houses look like they have been chewed on by beavers, really sorry sights. but then, if you are from Toronto, then you don't have a true picture of how a lot of Canadians live either- the poverty in some parts of the east coast is pretty unbelievable.>> Well ... I have been lucky in that I have done a lot of travelling. You are absolutley right again .... some of the conditions on the east coast are horrible .... certainly nothing we can be proud of. MB