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To: TFF who wrote (2878)2/7/1998 12:43:00 AM
From: AL RICE  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 12617
 
I suppose its time to stop lurking, and, perhaps participate. I am truly impressed with the quality of this thread even though, admittedly, a great deal is way over my head.

I started at ground Zero a few months ago. I bought 2000 shares of a .50 stock and sold it for .75 two days later. After ten minutes of smug satisfaction I sat here and realized, much to my amazement, that I had no idea how I really got the $500.00, and even less of an idea what to do next.

I started to read, and read some more and then read something else. Much of this material I didn't understand, but what was happening in me was a growing sense of excitement. It was an old familiar sense I have had hundreds of times. It was the same subtle thrill, challenge and measured expectancy that I always feel when I sit down to play poker. When I say "play" poker it is important to note that for me, although the game contains many of the artifacts of fun and relaxation, it is, a truly serious exercise. I play only to win. Most people play to lose ! I have never in my life had one other person admit that startling fact despite piles of evidence,
As I read the msg. threads on Yahoo, I could see so many of those people sitting at a card table loosing hand after hand and explaining it, to no one in particular, with a limitless litany of predigested excuses.

" What about this one guys ?? Does any one know when its going up ?"
" Can you tell me whats happening with this one ?"
" Isn't it about time for this to go up ?"
" I heard they are going bankrupt "
" You shouldn't waste time on this dog "
" Keep the faith. This is a good co."

I finally found this thread. Discipline, self control,a measured sense of risk, more discipline, research, responsibility for your own actions, discipline, enjoy the ride, share what you have with others,discipline, understand the distinction between who I am and what I would accomplish. never be ashamed to take a profit, discipline. Don't chase. No matter how much you WANT it to be a winner be able to throw it away. I make money in poker more because of the hands I do not play ( Chase) than on the ones I play out and take the pot. And then of course we have the ever popular "Discipline."
The analogy gets more profound the longer you deal with it.

This last month I've made 3000.00. A lot I'm sure is luck, and I found a couple of thing out by digging into and researching the board of
directors that gave me an edge.

I can see what a long possibly unending journey I have ahead. So very very much to learn.

This is sort of a long post so I'll close, with ....
Much thanks and gratitude.

al




To: TFF who wrote (2878)2/7/1998 10:43:00 AM
From: steve goldman  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 12617
 
RE: Irby's questions

here are some questions:

1) Assuming the leader of each industry is the leading indicator for that group, what is the correlation within the group?

-->Correlation, whether it be negative, positive and the strength of the correlation is something that makes this system work or not work. Get it wrong and you end up wondering why when dell went up and you bot MUEI, you lost but dell went to new highs.

is this something that you have found works consistently?Do you follow the fundamentals of each stock within the group so that you know which stocks will move in sympathy with the group leader?

I don't have any thing perse that I follow outside of experience from watching stocks print. For example, in the hard drives, QNTM is without at doubt far more volatile than WDC or SEG. So if QNTM is up 2 and WDC up only 3/8, I would NOT expect to see WDC bridge the gap. MRK and pFE i find to move tick for tick.

2) Do you use this strategy to Day Trade or Position Trade?

I find it most useful for daytrading. I will though for longer term trades, after I have done my research and I am interesting in zyx company, put up all of xyz's sector members and when I start to see action i like in the sector (even if its not my pick) i might use it as a buying opp for my pick.

3) How do you tell when money is flowing from one sector to another?

I know this sounds simplistic but, you can see it watching the stocks, looking for green stocks instead of red, stocks that are moving from up 1/4 to 1/2 instead of up 1/2 to 0. If I saw DELL green and HWP, CPQ, MUEI, IBM, all red, I would not extrapolate that money was moving into the sector.

4) Do you watch the industry indices rather than the stocks within the groups to determine what is moving and what is not?

I cant stress enough how unrepresetative the Dow is. The sp500, ok, good sampling, but how many days have the indices been on a tear and I make no money. I sometimes swear my stocks are contrarian indicators....lol! Anyway, I watch the indices because everyone else does. Everyone else sees GE, IBM, MRK selling off and they start putting selling pressure on everything so its important but not critical to watch the averages. I watch the TRIN and tick religiously.

5) Do you follow the charts of the individual stocks within the groups to know what the support/resistance zones are for each stock?

I am not a big tech analyst but when I am buying a position for a few weeks, months or year, I will look to see its performance, volume, stochastics and moving averages...why? because others are and historically, technical analysis has gotten it right, so why not? afterall, if there are tons of stocks outthere, and I like XYZ, but XYZ looks like its in a freefall and far from support, why not look to something else. When it all comes together, the fundamental analysis, tech analysis, the prints and market action, thats when I might be a buyer.
This for me applies more to longer term positions. Day trading , for me, is sometimes wild gunslinging. Sometimes I'm just staring at the screen, happen to catch a few prints on xyz and I buy it. Thought process - 5 seconds......sometimes...
Longer term stuff, you have to be more analytical since you could wake up with an OXHP on your hands.

6) Do you think this strategy could be used for one industry group only? such as technology?

7) Would you employ this strategy only with groups that tend to be moving in sympathy with the market?
Correlation of a sector move to industry is important to understand. Correlation between sector move to interest rates, political environment etc. is always important. I wouldn't simply employ strategy that moves in sympathy but would simply suggest that you try to fully realize the correlation of the sector to the rest of the market, interest rates, political, etc. whatever the correlation, 1 or negative 1.
Speaking of correlation, and I amnot statistician, but I believe the numbers can be expressed such as 1 to -1.....1 is that it moves directly in line with the market (other variable)....2 would be that it moves 2x the market...-1 moves oppostive the market...-2 moves 2x opposite the market....

8) Would your exit strategy be centered around the stock itself, the overall market, or both?
Both...somehting could be great, but if the market is tanking, sit on the sidelines, buy time and wait for the bounce.

Regards,
Steve@yamner.com



To: TFF who wrote (2878)2/7/1998 5:40:00 PM
From: ExCane  Respond to of 12617
 
Irby-
To add to Steve's answer-

Following the fundamentals can help if you know which ones in the group the analysts are hyping as a great value, such as EVI being hyped and knowing it follows SLB & HAL, but also study the groups to figure which ones to trade, such as CDG is in the same group, but can trade in big gaps so if you're wrong you're gonna regret it big. Also study the groups to know which ones will move in sympathy such as Steve's example with MUEI, money doesn't seem to jump into that one. Food for thought, study daily charts of your group members or overlay them, it might provide some insight. I'm going to put some time into that soon. It also helps to know specifics of the stocks, such as RD may not move in the same way the other oils may because of foreign currency issues. That would fall into the fundamentals category? I don't know many of these tidbits, but I think we all could help each other here with info like that, or knowing the fact that AHP owns 35% of IMNX has made me money, what have you found?
Sector index movement is a good quick indicator, except when a special situation is going on with a component such as a takeover. You get to know how up is up such as 10 points on the BIX is normal on a good day for the banks, but 10 points on the OSX would be big. Then look at your stocks.
The traders at my firm trade all of the groups together not just one group, such as technology, it also helps to know the subgroups like Steve said the boxmakers, disk drives. It even helps to know the subsub groups, but you can get overloaded I guess.
Regarding charting for tapereading trading-
I am a big follower of TA and the majority of my trading is based on it, but this type of trading, which I also do, doesn't seem to follow the support/resistance levels. Consider this- Hedgefund manager X has to be in the banks to play the game, is he going to stop and say hey, this is coming up to it's 50 day moving average? My opinion is no, because I have seen it time and again and sat on the sidelines passing up great trades. We are talking about popular, known liquid stocks. I use TA as a basis for the lesser ones. This is not to say it doesn't work for the big caps. (GM always fools me on the chart)
The Market-
Like Steve said, wait it out, your odds are better with the Market going your way. Do stocks move against the market? Yes. Though it's probably better to take a stock that held against a tanking market when the market reverses, or short one that couldn't keep up in a good market then the market tanks.
I know I'm rambling, but I am enthused about this discussion and hope others build on it. Take all my opinions for what they're worth- I've been at this for 2 yrs. though I work with some of the best and try to observe everything. If anybody disagrees with me, please post, I'd like to hear it.
-Alex