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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: greenspirit who wrote (761457)	4/16/2022 8:07:57 PM
From: didjuneau	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 793706

What they didn’t do is willfully enter another country (without warning) and start bombing their cities and killing the people that live there. Not another country - technically. Their own country. Shelling and killing their own people in their own country. In some ways, that's even worse. People in Mariupol and Donetsk who've been interviewed by Patrick Lancaster may think that the distinction you make about sovereign borders is not so important. What's important is that it finally stops. Many stated outright that they consider themselves Ukrainian - they haven't even gotten on board with independence yet. But they've been shelled for years without warning by the Ukrainians, with relatives and friends turning their yards into cemeteries. Patrick also has a video of a giant rocket crater in Russia near where he had his family flee to. That came from the Ukrainians. No one gave those civilians a heads up that they were in a war zone either. I agree that paranoia isn't a good excuse to invade another country. I also think that the hateful Azov neo-NAZI ideology that has been driving the internal hostility and sabotaging the peace agreements is getting some well-deserved punishment. It is very sad that the rest of the country has to be punished with them. The idea that Russia just wants the resources is based on paranoia as well, I think. They have stated their goals and resources isn't one of them. They already have resources beyond what they'll ever need. I did hear one interview of a Donbass woman who thought that the Azovs were shelling them to get them to leave so that wealthy Ukrainians could get the coal under their land. I rather doubt that, unless individuals were getting paid directly under-the-table. Probably boils down to plain ugly ethnic hatred and drug-addled power trips. Apparently these Azov battalions have been encamped for a long time and the people there know their habits from seeing them in recreational settings, like nightclubs. Blasting some houses of people you hate might seem like fun to them. Who's going to stop them? Speak Russian? Blam. Not any more. Hey guys, let's go cow tipping tonight. With a tank. Need a false flag? Hey everyone - we're gonna protect you over in the school. 8 hours later, school shelled. These guys are no angels. I'm also glad the Russians are getting heavy resistance. No one should be able to walk into a country and just take it. I hope that the Ukrainians can take it back from the neo-NAZIs and oligarchs once the Russians finally leave. Everyone loses when the "masterminds" control the politicians, which is what we've run into here in our own country. So it’s difficult for me to understand why somebody can sympathize with a country that went on such a killing spree unprovoked. Because, the claimed provocation was invented by Russia’s own fear and insecurity Starting to get it yet? To my mind, Russia is acting just as we did in the invasion of Iraq. The results are just about as bad, but the intentions may be just about as "good" as well as paranoid. Maybe, long term it can amount to something more positive. I think it was ill advised. At this point, I hope Russia agrees, although I don't expect them to admit it. We should stop feeding the disease to prevent it from spreading. We should have recognized that Ukraine had these problems, but our press is derelict and our government is too arrogant. When I think more about the similarities to Syria, I see that Obama and McCain were arming pre-ISIS factions, just like McCain and Graham were encouraging the Azovs. Proxy fighters to go against Russia in a "civil war" third country battleground. It took Trump to realize that a monster had been created and eliminate it in Syria. I'm not sure he realized what a monster had been created in Ukraine, since the monster got integrated into the wider army. We have no such options to wipe it out in Ukraine. They need to clean up their own act. The more war crimes they commit, the harder Russia's resolve will be.

To: greenspirit who wrote (761457)	4/16/2022 9:26:05 PM
From: THE WATSONYOUTH	1 Recommendation Recommended By pak73 Respond to of 793706

That’s primarily why I don’t buy the joining UN nonsense, or fear of a western army in Ukraine. They want the land and resources, they wanted it all, but will likely settle after thousands more die for the wealthiest areas. ...meanwhile the oh so "thoughtful" pundits on this board obsess over meaningless abstractions when the reality is staring them right in the face.

To: greenspirit who wrote (761457)	4/16/2022 9:47:27 PM
From: skinowski	6 Recommendations Recommended By 3bar frankw1900 garrettjax lightshipsailor MulhollandDrive and 1 more member Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 793706

I read the reply written to your post by didjuneau ( Message 33803707 ) and I think it’s an excellent, thoughtful reply. I would just add that - yes, if you wake up one day and find out that European country X invaded their neighbors, country Y - and blood is spilling — it does sound crazy. But, looking from the time when the USSR fell apart - there were plenty of agreements made, including promises that NATO will not expand to the East - all of them broken. Dozens of countries to the East consequently joined that military alliance - and Ukraine was only the latest step. Things are far more complicated than at the first glance. Spengler wrote in 2014-15 that if Ukraine joins Nato, the European part of Russia would become virtually indefensible by using conventional weaponry. Right now, there are reports that several US think tanks are developing plans of splitting Russia into several smaller jurisdictions. And, they didn’t start developing those plans in the last couple of months. Russia is a huge thorn in the side of the Globalists - because they are too familiar with communistic solutions - and would have no part of something like the Claus Schwab’s One World BS. Therefore, the plan is to damage them - and hopefully, break them up into smaller countries - so they never come back as a significant power. Which is precisely what Zbigniew Brzezinski advocated decades ago. There is nothing new about this strategy. War is a great tragedy for millions of people. Causes for this one were pestering for many, many years - including 8 years of an actual shooting war in Donbas - which, apparently, was in the process of getting worse. I just hope that the whole thing gets settled without escalating into a global disaster. People seem to be - irrationally, in my view - convinced that a serious transcontinental nuclear war is impossible. I think the odds for military use of nukes right now are the highest they’ve ever been since 1945. The Cold War was far less dangerous. At the very least, there was mutual respect - and an understanding that neither side wanted a big war. Today, there is no respect and zero understanding. Just assumptions by bureaucrats — and primitive, propaganda-driven psychoanalyzing. Very, very dangerous.