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Strategies & Market Trends : Level II Trading -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Robert Graham who wrote (128)	2/9/1998 6:20:00 PM
From: Dominick	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1086

Bob: Just a thought. I believe any non-professional who thinks they can beat a professional at their own game will be taught a lesson in humility. The reason I'm entering this business isn't to try to out guess a MM. I'm looking for those thousands of other traders who shoot from the hip or from emotion without a trading plan or strategy. Thar's gold in them thar hills. Dominick

To: Robert Graham who wrote (128)	2/9/1998 8:06:00 PM
From: ExCane	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1086

Bob- I just assume Drrisk is a soes trader, not sure. Some super trader once said something like "the uninformed majority funds the informed minority" in this game. I guess you could apply this to scalping in that the reality is that you can't beat the MM's (other informed minority), but you have to beat the other traders (less informed majority) to take your piece. Another thought, the experienced soes traders are probably making their living off of the newly professional "traders" that are lured in by the hype every day, hell I see it on TV and hear ads on the radio for "a new career in electronic daytrading". You see postings from them on SI every day. As I posted on another thread, I traded at a place with one of Houtkin's original bandits, actually 2 of them, and now they are both opening and managing soes offices. Why do you think they're not trading fulltime anymore? I was not a heavy volume trader, but I'm pretty sure I gave my trading house $3000+/- per week in commissions. It's a great business (as seen from an outsider's point of view). I was previously a building contractor and had to put out capital and do work, in addition to all sorts of non-compensated tasks, to hopefully get paid. Imagine a business where you have the customer's money from the start and you just deduct your fees whether they win or lose (I suspect it's not that simple), but it sounds sweet. Sorry for the directionless ramblings. -Alex

To: Robert Graham who wrote (128)	2/9/1998 9:52:00 PM
From: Dan Duchardt	Respond to of 1086

Bob, >>>When I saw the report that described the SOES bandit who places in false bids just to quickly retract them in their attempt to cause movement in the stock, I did see this as an unethical practice that is not helping the other traders in the stock. This particular SOES activity reminds about the complaints I here about the MM and MM manipulation. I do not see any difference here in the intended purpose.<<< I have not seen the report to which you refer, but I understand how an individual trader could enter a bid (but never with SOES) he has no intention of filling, under certain circumstances. One of the reasons I am taking the course from All-Tech is that I recognized how ignorant I was, and how much misinformation there is in the public, including a lot on SI, about how the market works. There are people who think all MMs are slime. Others who think they are just doing their jobs. To me, both points of view are irrelevant. The fact is that regardless of their ethics, personalities, motives, etc., etc., MMs have a unique position in a multi-trillion dollar industry that people like us participate in with the hope of increasing our financial well being. As a trader, I don't care what their motives are. I DO care what they do in the market. I believe it is fair to say that a private trader can only impact the market by entering a "false bid" when the MMs create this opportunity by holding the spread open. Every time a trader does this, he is at risk that his order will be filled before he withdraws the bid. In that sense, there is no such thing as a "false bid", only very real bids that are short lived. Every day I can find NASDAQ stocks where the MM bid/ask spread is $3/4 on a sub $20 stock. The MMs are saying to the public, "I'll buy this little piece of a company from one of you, mark it up 5% (or more), and sell at a profit to the next buyer who comes along." Why shouldn't a trader who is willing to pay a little more, and sell for a little less be able to play that game? NASDAQ is by definition a negotiated market. You buy at the best price you can find, and sell at the best price you can get. A trader can only do better than the MM when the MM wants more than the individual trader is willing to take for performing the exact same function. Of course they don't like it. Why should they? But it is fair competition. A final thought- one man's opinion about the difference between an investor and a trader: It has nothing to do with how long you hold onto your stock. True investors are people who participate in the activity of a company, attending meetings, expressing views to management and the board of directors, voting on issues. The rest of us are all traders, or if you prefer the term "scalpers" who contribute nothing to the company except for our capital in the marketplace. My capital is just as valuable whether it resides in one stock for months or years, or scurries around from one stock to the next on a time scale of seconds or minutes. And it makes absolutely no difference who owns that capital. If I lose mine to you, or you lose yours to me, if it's in the marketplace it is available to the companies that need it to grow their business. Dan