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Pastimes : College Football: Nits, Gators, Bruins, Vols - Whoever! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: dylan murphy who wrote (11110)1/15/2024 2:24:18 PM
From: sense  Respond to of 11146
 
I think you've nailed the issue... which is that "the sport" has too many "managers" and not enough leaders. Stuffed shirts filling chairs isn't a recipe for long term success when things are on an even keel. When the reality requires greater capacity to understand the emerging complexity and adapt ? Stick a fork in the NCAA.

I note its mostly no longer possible for me to watch a lot of what interests me most... as I'm not subscribed to the SEC channel. As I'm busy enough with other things... that I don't really need to try to find a way to spend more time on sports as entertainment... I mostly follow Auburn basketball now by watching the highlights on YouTube a day or two after the latest game... which saves me a lot of time.

Yesterday, I noted a "free TV" basketball game featuring Auburn vs LSU on a Sunday ? Yeah. They played the "real" game on Saturday evening... on the SEC Network... and the Sunday show was the girls team. I watched a bit of it... not lacking interest in the set up... Auburn playing the defending national champs LSU at home. And, it was a tight game, closely fought. But, I just lost interest in it at some point... it ended... and I had no idea who'd won. Because... it was boring. The girls are competitive with each other... but, they're not even remotely close to being "good" in the way any one of the top 25 men's teams are "good ? Compare them with the men, and... they lack strength, speed, coordination, endurance, skill, and competitive attitude, which, increasingly in women's sports... is interpreted as "willing to commit violence". Women's basketball worse than the men's in having players being charged with assault for on court participation ? Anyway.

The same issue, of course, in sorting out the men. I love the game(s). Played as youth. But, I was never going to be remotely close to being capable of being competitive with... say... Auburn legend Bo Jackson ?
And, really... who is ? Champions are what they are for a reason... which is not "we're all the same" ?

So, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the "participation trophy" crowd teaching their kids that winning is unimportant... and that differences don't matter. But, without enabling participation... you deny future champions the opportunity to become what they could be ? And then, "competition" is NOT all and only about winning... but about learning what there is to be learned from competing... as those lessons learned in sports participation make champions in many things other than sports, too ?

Why don't we solve the girls "problem" by simply dissolving the sex differentiation in sports... and just let them compete to get on the men's team ? Problem solved ? Participation isn't a guarantee you win... anything... including a paycheck. Welcome to reality. I suspect much of what people wring hands over today in relation to "problems" falls into the problem-solution category of "be careful what you ask for, because you might get it"...

Same in relation to "small school" issues ? There's always been a reason we've had leagues in every sport... or, some distinctions... whether in bowling, horseracing, or as weight classes in wrestling or boxing... to enable everyone to participate in competition with their PEERS. Seeking to make every school competitive at the top level is... a pipe dream. There is a limited quantity of "top talent" ? So, rather than engage in fantasy... why not focus on optimizing the distinctions we should have and should recognize ?

"Why go pro (and fail) when you can go to Miami and (succeed and) get a big paycheck ?"

I think that's right... and a case in point in how the re-alignments occurring now can make the "sport" better... in the sense of fostering greater competition among the "top" teams... and "smoothing" the linkages between the college sport and the pros. But, I'd agree there may be more that needs doing, there...

Haven't seen anyone addressing how the pay stacks up... as between playing in college as a top talent, versus playing in a European league, a baseball farm team, or some such ? Keeping kids in school longer probably better for them... and better for the "sport" defined broadly...

Auburn has had a lot of basketball stars, recently, in the "one and done" camp... and that seems it mostly doesn't really work out to well... for the kids, the schools, or the NBA teams they join "too soon". Have another of those freshman talents currently... and, "we'll see" ?



To: dylan murphy who wrote (11110)1/15/2024 6:41:02 PM
From: sense1 Recommendation

Recommended By
dylan murphy

  Respond to of 11146
 
A turning of the Tide ?


Curious what the reaction was in the Plains to Nick stepping down? Dancing in the streets?


Some of that, in celebration, perhaps, but mostly from the lower class of pundits, I think. Have seen it for quite a while, already, that Paul Finebaum has of late been being quite a bit more conservative in checking his toast to see which side has the butter on it.

For me, and many others, I suspect... its more of a wistfulness. The torch getting passed is always a pairing of something of value being lost, and a new era beginning. Auburn and Alabama have always had that relationship, too... not only competing... but respecting the competition... if not too overtly. Auburn's Shug Jordan, Bama's Bear Bryant... defined a generation... and then change came... turning pages in history. Alabama had 8 coaches and one national championship after Bryant's six... before Saban, who gave them 16 years, and 6 national championships, along with a winning record better than Bryants.

Auburn, after 24 years under Shug with a "winning" record at .675, had eleven good years under Pat Dye .711 and five good years under Terry Bowden at .731 and getting better over time... before... Auburn being Auburn began to impose a long decline... inclusive of all 11 coaches then until now... shifting us from slightly above "average" to "disappointing"... have not had a winning season since 2019. The one national championship in that stretch was under Chizak playing with Tuberville's recruits... while NCAA issues in the Dye era, meant "the good ole boys" legacy denied us one or two more under Bowden.

On this Top 20 List: Who are the winningest college football coaches of all time? I see a lot of big names, but only 6 SEC coaches... Bryant, Saban (at Alabama), Lou Holtz (at Arkansas, South Carolina), Steve Spurrier (Florida, South Carolina), Vince Dooley (Georgia) and Dan McGugin at Vanderbilt... " in his 30-year run with the Commodores: winning 76.2% of his games -- and 11 conference titles, before being inducted in the inaugural College Football Hall of Fame class in 1951."

Many on the Auburn side quietly somewhat disappointed by Saban's retirement... because correcting issues to become more competitive... with everyone on the same page, if grudgingly... already had us "mostly" back on course to becoming more competitive. We'd prefer to be able to win it outright... by beating Saban... (and Kirby Smart, along with all the others.) But, a reality also that Saban today isn't a young man... and its been apparent for a while already that this day was coming sooner rather than later. So, it is what it is... and you respect the man as a champion. And, next year... begins a new era... the first in a while in which we'll be able to compete without the deck being stacked against us in the way it has been... even if its mostly been us doing the stacking.

At the very least it help with recruiting in-state.

Auburn's recruiting had already taken a major turn under Freeze, using the portal to fill holes. Look at this year's class... and, consider that in context of last years performance... which, whatever else it was in terms of winning percentage... still had Auburn holding their own against Bama and Georgia... in the game right to the end, losing each by one score. How many others played Bama and Georgia and lost by one score ? Not good enough... but clearly headed in the right direction. Auburn is back, already winning recruiting battles in Alabama, and Georgia... and Florida... before the news.

I suspect its more true that the decision to retire was driven by seeing that bit of writing on the wall, more than it was driven by other things... excepting "time".

I'm not even going to ask about the end of that game this year. Ouch. That had to be heartbreaking.

Yeah. I don't even know what to say about it ? I'm still not sure I have "what happened" correctly sorted out in my head yet... as it was a fairly chaotic sequence of events... that "shouldn't" have happened as it did. Auburn wasn't expect to win it, of course... and a lot of fans, even after, the day of, were seeing it as "what we have to look forward to" given in only year two in a rebuild from the ground up. That's "generally" been the "take away" as much and more than it was seen as an unmitigated disaster. But, also, too typical of Auburn-Alabama... and pride enough for both teams in that... the reason that the Iron Bowl is... something unique in all of college sports. Still... ridiculous they found a way to lose a game they'd already all but won...

But I thought the hire itself was interesting. Seems they had to down the list a bit to find a coach. You would think more would want the best job in country.

More backstory than that, there, I think. The prior hire was the one "the university" wanted. Harsin was (correctly, IMO) selected as "the best potential"... by the Athletic Director... whose job it was... and the University President. But, the "good ole boys" wanted Kevin Steele (?) or Hugh Freeze, and since they didn't get them... after the hire was made, they refused to back the choice of Bryan Harsin with $ and other forms of support. Harsin wasn't going to be allowed to succeed. And, yeah, what they did to him... clearly poisoned the well in relation to any one else having an interest in the job ?

So, we should probably stop there and discuss that as... not unique to Auburn... in context of the $ in sports issues ? Michigan on that hotseat, today... if not exactly parsed in context of "$", "the sport" and "institutional control" ?

The institutions (NCAA, schools) clearly are no longer in control of the sport... as "the $" is in control.

I think the only obvious solution is to require "the money" all be filtered through endowment structures... so that external holdings of new money contributed... or NOT contributed... don't impose choices... and alter who is in charge of our public institutions.

I think Harsin was a great football coach... who was never allowed to be in control of Auburn's program. He was an "on the field" coach... and was not ready for the "game" that is SEC football, in the politics and the $... and was not ready for the wars in the recruiting game... that is SEC football. For Auburn to succeed under Harsin, those requirements would need to be met by "support" provided... getting everyone on the same team on the same page... support which was deliberately withdrawn. The "boosters" opted to impose failure by not cooperating... in order to re-assert their own control.

I also wondered if there are parallels with the Auburn hire a few years back. An out of the area coach that didn't fit with the locals too well.

I think that's a clear risk.

Harsin was actually a great fit with the locals... philosophically very much at home in Auburn. Most might not get it that... culturally, most of the inland and rural Pacific Northwest is a product of translocated southerners... as the end of the Civil War occurred coincident with the opening of the west ? Lots of small town names taken from southern cities... not so many from the North East ?

The coasts, however... culturally, might be seen as "Portland or San Francisco"...

Harsin, though, wasn't one of the good ole boys deeply embedded in Southern football coaching circles... rather than a rising star among west coast football cognoscenti. Football down south is far more of an insiders clique than most people might realize. "We" expect football coaches come from here, and go elsewhere... versus... who is that ruddy cheeked carpetbagger down there at LSU, again ? LOL! Kelly versus Orgeron... in context of the Big Easy culture... is a stretch ? Look at Michigan in that context, today, and ???

So, how much of that is "Auburn being Auburn"... and how much of that is going to be repeated now at Alabama... with a new coach who appears only less culturally suited than Harsin was ? Will the boosters support him ? Can he recruit ? We'll see... but, probably... "not like Saban"... as few would be.

Deboer has a great resume so maybe it won't be too big of an adjustment.

A lot of the internal conflict within Auburn... was about... the cultural and personal issues. Malzahn was a bit too crazy and experimental... flighty... couldn't recruit an OL or a DL... didn't seem that good with relationships... so Auburn had Bo Nix, but couldn't field a quality QB ? Think back to Alabama's head coach select from (eastern) Washington... 20 years ago... Mike Price ? What happened there ? So, that aspect of the resume was a reason to select Harsin as "not Price" and an "anti-Malzahn" and "anti-Freeze" in terms of demonstrated elements in basic character. Harsin absolutely "a good guy". That Freeze was the first choice "the second time"... more about the football than the other stuff... if with a bit of "cooling off" time to let Liberty prove the contrition was real ?

And, that's the same sort of stuff that's been a recurrent issue at many "smaller to mid tier" schools... where the football programs might be bigger than the institutions that supposedly "contain" them ?

In terms of background and suitability... Michigan, Iowa/South Dakota and West Coast - Seattle (western Washington... is NOT the same as eastern Washington) are probably about as far removed from the shared touchstones in Southern cultural elements or identity as you can get. But, there are clearly finite opportunities for getting "the right fit" in college coaching positions... or Kelly might be coaching at Michigan, now, and not LSU... and Harsin might be coaching at Washington, now... as a much better "regional" fit ?

I don't find the hire of DeBoer particularly remarkable... in terms of the resume proving his technical qualification.

I think the two elements that will be more interesting to look at are:

1. The PROCESS by which he was hired... which I know nothing about. But, it seems it wasn't an emergent requirement created in a surprise... rather than a planned process ? And, it seems Alabama has managed to avoid the "Auburn being Auburn" issues that have kept Auburn football coaching changes in the news for all the wrong reasons the last few years.

If the NCAA wants to try to regain control that they've already essentially lost... they're probably going to have to start with a focus there. But, the odds of the NCAA doing anything to isolate the schools from control by the $... seems very long odds.

2. The Cultural Fit... and how that relates to the recruiting issues inside Alabama, and the surrounding states.

The reasons Harsin failed were: 1. the good ole boys didn't support him, and, 2. recruiting. The good ole boys closed ranks... and they are very well connected to and through the networks of high school coaches... and they exert a lot of influence.

Saban retired... I think... in some part because of that awareness that he was already being out-recruited by Freeze, including in a number of key areas that were considered to be Alabama constituencies... like Mobile. The same trend was apparent as Kirby Smart at Georgia started whittling away at Alabama's base of recruits... and the big fish are in a pond that perhaps isn't quite large enough to sustain three ?

There was already awareness and anticipation... discussion... that Saban wouldn't be around much longer... and that, together with advantages Auburn has been creating for itself over the last decade(s) (facilities !)... The competition was getting tougher already... with the transfer portal easing the transition in a turn around far more than would be possible without it.

I suspect that's an under-appreciated aspect of the transfer portal... as it enables "success" happening far faster... where a new coach creates a buzz... as you see obviously enough at Colorado...

Auburn had already flipped a couple of Alabama recruits well before the announcement... a 4* DL and a 5* WR in 2023. And, not just about Alabama... also collected a few from Georgia, too. That is not the direction in the flow in how that shift "usually" goes... that shift not about Saban, though, rather than about Auburn letting Freeze do his job.

And, after it... 5* WR Ryan Williams decommits from Alabama ? Will he land at Auburn, instead ?

From here... will have to see what other changes result... in the staff and in players or recruits leaving... or new ones arriving from the west coast ? Will that happen ?

Auburn is making some pretty major changes in staffing, too... to which no one will pay any attention.

I think Auburn has some long term advantages relative to Alabama... and in the long term programmatic view of things... that shift began long ago, even with Auburn mostly interfering with itself as much as possible in realizing it, in recent years. That goes all the way back to when the Iron Bowl got slated to become a "home and away" series instead of a game always played in Birmingham - which is "home" for Alabama. Not shockingly, the series record has evened quite up a lot since that shift occurred... even with Auburn mostly in decline in that period. For now... the advantage shifts to Auburn, again... in consequence of other elements in the long term planning delivering results in quality of facilities, other focus elements... making Auburn a great place to be... for NFL wannabees. Those things now extant... were plans being made... back when I was in school... forty years ago ? Alabama without Saban... is not as competitive in some ways, as others who've not had the ability to rely on the benefit of having a legendary coach ?

Many years ago, I lived in North Dakota. A huge political fight broke out, and it raged unchecked over some years time. The legislature HOTLY debated whether or not to change the name of the state, removing the "North" to make it just "Dakota"... because the "North" in North Dakota made people think it was cold, there.

The debate ended, and the participants slank away... only after the Bismarck newspaper printed an editorial cartoon titled "Why stop with just a name change ?"... showing North Dakota cut out of the map, and re-inserted between Georgia and Florida.

It's still a constant puzzle to me why it is Alabama, and not Miami, that stacks up their National Championship trophies (even if many are tarnished, and questionable) in a warehouse somewhere on campus ? Why isn't Hawaii WAY more competitive in recruiting ? Why would anyone actually choose to live in southern California... unless it was on the beach ? I don't know.

But, its not THAT much of a puzzle: others have advantages you can't do much about, but those advantages can still be countered with a proper focus, and planning, enabling other advantages. And, then, for Auburn - including finally - getting everyone on the same page, at the same time... and not acting like they are spoiled children ?

Not surprisingly, great success in college football requires... great leadership. That means both great coaching... AND great program management... and both, together, enabling and allowing the greatness to happen.

That it is as rare as it is... makes it worth celebrating it when we do find it.

And, given there's not any mystery about the requirements... the fact of its rarity also tells us something else important... about "most of us" ?



To: dylan murphy who wrote (11110)1/20/2024 5:24:42 PM
From: sense  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 11146
 
The pundits efforts to evaluate the impact of Saban's retirement have shifted gears from celebration and speculation to observation and analysis... while time has delivered answers fairly quickly.

The new coach is bringing a lot of staff from Washington with him... none of whom have any experience in recruiting in the SEC. And, he's bringing a QB with him from Washington, too... which has Alabama's best of class 5* QB recruit opting out.

He's not the only one. The analysis says... 42% of Alabama's scholarship players, thus far, have either announced for the NFL draft (about 1/4 of them)... or announced for the transfer portal. More are expected to make announcements this weekend. And, then, another open window in the spring... leaves Alabama fans struggling to put a good spin on it.

"About time" that Alabama has to deal with "the same old" as everyone else... is a widely shared opinion. And, Saban's reputation as a bully inside the Conference means he's not going to be missed by the rest. Odds are good Alabama's scheduling problems... and schedule... will become a lot tougher... as there's a legacy there some will feel compelled to correct and compensate for, now.

But, not the end of the analysis. Consensus is the the new Alabama head coach is good enough with quarterbacks... but, the hole created by losing Saban's own strength on the defensive side, will be filled with a defensive coordinator's position that is now a responsibility that's shared... three ways... with none of those three candidates expected to be able to recruit at a high level.

Auburn's Freeze is also taking ownership of his program, this year, and making big moves on the coaching staff. Replacing the OC with Ole Miss' asst head coach Derrick Nix... is a massive win for Auburn... and a huge loss for Kiffen and Ole Miss. The new DC is Charles Kelly... bringing experience at Florida State, Alabama and Tennessee... but coming to Auburn from Colorado, where he was the 2023 National Recruiter of the Year... as the architect of the turnaround there. It appears Auburn finally has "the right crew"... but also the right balance in responsibilities between program leadership, ability in game day duties, and recruiting prowess.

The re-build at Alabama is going to become, of necessity, a "ground up" affair, it seems. Although there are optimists who expect enough player talent will remain next year to keep Alabama competitive, I'm skeptical of that. Given the extent of the disruption... and the lack of definition in any end point... a period of "wandering in the wilderness" seems likely. And, then... is Alabama "the best head coaching job in the country" ? Or, is that expectation largely, if not entirely, built on Saban's reputation... rather than any ability to inherit the advantages it enabled ? Alabama... isn't going to go away... as Auburn has not during its recent string of down years. And, Saban's reputation didn't build itself without being enabled by others. But, Alabama likely has "catching up" to do... as the $ for facilities has lagged competitors... and that might mean the "re-building" takes long enough to test the faith of the Alabama faithful.

The focus of competitors, for now, is on the sudden creation of a "talent rich" portal... and resulting impacts which I expect will not be limited to the region... as much as the peer group in the polls. That is going to advantage many of Alabama's competitors, short term... much as occurred at Texas A&M recently with the coaching change. But, the bigger and longer term impact in the SEC is going to come from the local and regional re-balancing in the recruitment of the kids coming out of the high schools. Auburn and Tennessee are naturally enough expected to be beneficiaries... but, kids from Mississippi, Texas, Florida and Louisiana... may be far more likely to stay home, now.

The rich get richer, they say. Usually... but not always.