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Politics : Support the French! Viva Democracy! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Tom Clarke who wrote (7722)3/2/2025 7:10:27 PM
From: Maple MAGA 2 Recommendations

Recommended By
Mick Mørmøny
Tom Clarke

  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 7823
 
Keep Ireland insanely Irish...!




To: Tom Clarke who wrote (7722)3/2/2025 7:11:06 PM
From: Maple MAGA 1 Recommendation

Recommended By
Mick Mørmøny

  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 7823
 
What country in Europe is the most likely to form the first Islamic Caliphate?

Chat GPT

No European country is currently on a path to forming an Islamic Caliphate, as the concept of a caliphate involves a theocratic government based on Islamic law, which is fundamentally incompatible with the secular democratic systems that define European governance.

However, if you're asking which country has the largest Muslim population or the strongest Islamic political movements, some factors to consider include:
  • France has the largest Muslim population in Europe (around 5–8 million), but it has strong secularism (laïcité) enshrined in law, making any form of theocratic rule highly unlikely.
  • Germany and the United Kingdom also have significant Muslim populations, but they are deeply integrated into democratic institutions.
  • Bosnia and Herzegovina is the only European country with a Muslim-majority population (roughly 50%), but it has a secular government and a complex political structure influenced by Western institutions.
  • Turkey, while not part of the EU, has had a shift toward Islamic conservatism under Erdogan but remains officially secular.
Even in countries with growing Islamic political activism, the overwhelming dominance of secular legal frameworks, democratic institutions, and cultural resistance to religious governance makes an Islamic Caliphate in Europe extraordinarily improbable.

Are you referring to specific trends or concerns that make you think this is a possibility?



To: Tom Clarke who wrote (7722)3/2/2025 7:43:11 PM
From: Maple MAGA 2 Recommendations

Recommended By
Mick Mørmøny
Tom Clarke

  Respond to of 7823
 
I asked Chat GPT to review these quotes on the Crusades.

“Christendom might quite reasonably have been alarmed if it had not been attacked. But as a matter of history it had been attacked. The Crusader would have been quite justified in suspecting the Moslem even if the Moslem had merely been a new stranger; but as a matter of history he was already an old enemy. The critic of the Crusade talks as if it had sought out some inoffensive tribe or temple in the interior of Tibet, which was never discovered until it was invaded. They seem entirely to forget that long before the Crusaders had dreamed of riding to Jerusalem, the Moslems had almost ridden into Paris.” G.K. Chesterton In The Meaning of the Crusade, 1920

“Now put this down in your notebook, because it will be on the test: The crusades were in every way a defensive war. They were the West's belated response to the Muslim conquest of fully two-thirds of the Christian world.” Dr. Thomas Madden

“The first point to be made in defense of the Crusades is that they were initially a response to Islamic aggression. Islam, from its inception, had espoused the use of force. Where Jesus had died for his beliefs, the Prophet Mohammed had wielded a sword. Though Christianity was later to be exploited for political ends, the Christian religion as such had, in the first three centuries of its existence, spread peacefully--thriving, in fact, on the blood of its martyrs. I say this not to score a point in favour of Christianity but to emphasize an historical truth: The spread of Islam from the Arabian peninsula to south-western France in the eighth century; and to the gates of Vienna in the seventeenth, came as a result of conquest by Islamic armies.” Piers Paul Read

[Dr. Paul Halsall to CNN interviewer Jonathan Mann]” I think there is just as much bad information, for instance, in Christiane's [Amanpour] report or in your previous segment, than is in the film. For instance, the idea that the Muslim world has this memory of the Crusades is very largely incorrect. It is a recovered memory. The idea that Jerusalem is Islam's third holiest place, Islam has many third holiest places. The idea that the capture of Jerusalem in 1099 was particularly horrific. All of these things are truisms repeated repeatedly on television, but they are not in fact correct.” Dr. Paul Halsall

“The story we tell about the crusades is that of ambitious nobles and merchants; intolerant Christians who kill innocent Jews, peaceful Arabs, and non-conventional Christians [heretics]; and scheming popes. Most of these villains are half competent fools and knaves who enrich themselves through taxes and trade, excusing their excesses through pious hypocrisy. In these stores the Turks are somehow forgotten, as though they were not a dangerous enemy at that time, or are confused with Arabs, while the Armenians, Byzantines, and other near-Eastern Christians are ignored for lack of time and space to discuss them. What is emphasized most strongly is the moral superiority of "natives," non-Christians, and non-traditional Christians. Secondly, the victimization of culturally superior Moslems by ethnocentric Westerners whose crudeness is equalled only by their love of violence and cunning. Lastly, any questioning of this thesis is dismissed as racism. In short, an aging collection of anti-colonial sentiments has merged with mild political correctness (opposition to violence, scepticism toward Western religious traditions and practices, concern for social issues reflecting race, gender, class, and ethnicity) to dominate current historiography of the Crusades.” Dr. William Urban

“If the Muslims won the crusades (and they did), why the anger now? Shouldn't they celebrate the crusades as a great victory? Until the nineteenth century that is precisely what they did. It was the West that taught the Middle East to hate the crusades. During the peak of European colonialism, historians began extolling the medieval crusades as Europe's first colonial venture. By the 20th century, when imperialism was discredited, so too were the crusades. They haven't been the same since. In other words, Muslims in the Middle East — including bin Laden and his creatures — know as little about the real crusades as Americans do. Both view them in the context of the modern, rather than the medieval world. The truth is that the crusades had nothing to do with colonialism or unprovoked aggression. They were a desperate and largely unsuccessful attempt to defend against a powerful enemy.” Dr. Thomas Madden

“As Vincent Carroll so eloquently explains, only a historical ignoramus--or, I would add at the risk of redundancy, a tendentious PBS editor --could produce the claptrap statement that the Crusades marked the first time Islam and the West met on the battlefield. Islam began with one man in Mecca and, within less than two centuries, encompassed territory from the Iberian Peninsula to the Hindu Kush. This expansion did not happen peacefully. The Arab Muslim armies attacked and conquered Byzantine Christian territories in Syria and Egypt and, a bit later, Arab-Berber Muslim forces conquered the formerly Roman, but still Christian, cities and towns across North Africa and into what is now Spain and Portugal, ruling there for seven centuries. Muslim armies invaded the Frankish Kingdom, later to become France, in 732 and were defeated by Charlemagne's grandfather, Charles Martel. Over the next three centuries the Sunni Muslim Seljuq Turks further dissected the Byzantine Empire, beginning a process that would be completed by their cousins the Ottomans, who conquered Constantinople in 1453 and ruled south-eastern Europe for centuries. So the Crusades, far from being the first time Muslims and Christians fought, were actually merely the first time that Christians, after four centuries of defeats, really fought back. “ Dr. Timothy Furnish



To: Tom Clarke who wrote (7722)3/2/2025 7:43:43 PM
From: Maple MAGA 2 Recommendations

Recommended By
Mick Mørmøny
Tom Clarke

  Respond to of 7823
 
Here is Chat's answers...

These quotes present a historical perspective that frames the Crusades as a defensive response to Muslim expansion, a view that is debated among historians. Here's an analysis of their historical accuracy:

G.K. Chesterton (1920)
  • Accurate in Context, but Simplistic: Chesterton correctly points out that Muslim forces had expanded significantly before the Crusades, reaching as far as southern France (Battle of Tours, 732). However, his framing oversimplifies the geopolitical context. The Crusades were not simply a reaction to Muslim expansion into Europe but were also motivated by internal Christian dynamics, the request for aid from the Byzantine Empire (Alexios I's plea to Pope Urban II), and the desire to secure Christian access to Jerusalem.
  • Muslims ‘almost riding into Paris’ is a reference to the Umayyad advance into France, which was stopped by Charles Martel at Tours. While a significant event, it happened in 732, centuries before the First Crusade (1096).
Dr. Thomas Madden (Crusades as a Defensive War)
  • Largely Accurate: Madden is a well-respected historian specializing in the Crusades. His assertion that the Crusades were a response to Islamic conquests is correct in the sense that Islamic forces had taken over a large portion of formerly Christian lands, including the Levant, North Africa, and Spain.
  • However, Not All Crusades Were Defensive: While the First Crusade (1096) was launched in response to Seljuk advances in Anatolia and Jerusalem’s loss to the Fatimids, later Crusades (e.g., the Fourth Crusade in 1204, which sacked Christian Constantinople) were not defensive at all. The Crusades also involved political, economic, and religious motivations beyond a simple defensive response.
Piers Paul Read
  • Largely Accurate, but With an Apologetic Tone: His comparison of Jesus and Muhammad is a standard argument in Christian-Muslim polemics but doesn’t reflect the complex realities of religious history. While Islam did spread through military conquest, Christianity too, especially after Constantine, became entangled with empire and political power (e.g., Charlemagne’s forced conversions of the Saxons).
  • Correct About Early Christian Expansion: Christianity spread largely through missionary efforts and conversion rather than military conquest in its first three centuries. However, after Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire, coercion and military force became common in Christian expansion as well.
Dr. Paul Halsall
  • Jerusalem as Islam’s Third Holiest Place: The claim that Jerusalem is not universally regarded as Islam’s third holiest site is misleading. While other locations, such as Damascus, have been considered highly significant, the status of Jerusalem (Al-Aqsa Mosque) as Islam’s third holiest site is well-established in Islamic tradition and widely accepted among Muslims.
  • Crusades as a ‘Recovered Memory’ in the Muslim World: This is a well-documented historical argument. The Crusades did not leave a lasting, deep resentment in the Muslim world; they were considered localized conflicts. The modern anti-Crusade sentiment was revived in the 19th-20th centuries due to European colonialism and later Islamist narratives.
Dr. William Urban
  • Accurate Critique of Modern Historiography Bias: His assessment of how the Crusades are often misrepresented in modern historical discourse has merit. There has been a trend to portray the Crusaders solely as aggressors and the Muslims as victims, ignoring that the Crusades were part of a long struggle between expanding civilizations.
  • However, Crusaders Were Not Purely Noble Defenders: While his critique of modern "victimization narratives" is fair, the Crusaders did engage in acts of brutality, including the massacre in Jerusalem (1099), the destruction of Constantinople (1204), and forced conversions.
Dr. Thomas Madden (Muslims Celebrating Their Victory Until the 19th Century)
  • Largely Accurate: The Crusades were not viewed as catastrophic in the medieval Muslim world in the way they are today. Muslim chroniclers recorded them, but they were not seen as existential threats. The memory of the Crusades was revived primarily in the 19th-20th centuries due to European imperialism and the West’s framing of the Crusades as an early form of colonialism.
Dr. Timothy Furnish
  • Accurate in Depicting Early Islamic Conquests: His description of Islamic expansion from Spain to Central Asia is historically correct. Muslim conquests did involve significant military campaigns, including the rapid takeover of the Byzantine provinces of Syria and Egypt and the invasion of Spain.
  • Correct in Stating That the Crusades Were Not the First Christian-Muslim Conflict: The Crusades were indeed preceded by centuries of conflict, including Muslim raids on Italy (e.g., the sacking of Rome in 846) and the Byzantine-Arab wars.
  • Overstates the Narrative of Christian Retaliation: While the Crusades were a response to Muslim expansion, they were not simply defensive but had multiple motivations, including religious zeal, territorial ambition, and economic factors.
Overall Assessment
  • The general claim that the Crusades were largely a response to Islamic conquests is historically accurate but somewhat oversimplified.
  • Islam did spread through military conquest, and the Christian world had been losing territory for centuries before the Crusades. However, the Crusades were not purely defensive—they also had political and expansionist motivations.
  • The modern portrayal of the Crusades as purely Western aggression is misleading, but so is the claim that they were a purely noble effort to "defend Christendom."
  • The resentment of the Crusades in the Muslim world was indeed a modern development and was not a major part of medieval Islamic discourse.
Would you like a specific breakdown of any part?