<Christine, it's no secret that you are the single biggest whiner to the threadmaster on SI. Don't assume anyone else would want to follow you in this childish anti-free speech direction.>
I think it is pretty normal and healthy to expect to be treated reasonably politely, and not be consistently ridiculed or slandered or stalked electronically, Michael. I will defend myself if necessary. In any event, as I said before, Jill is very busy and I don't believe I have ever discussed you with her.
<I see, so if you are a free-thinker or a pagan, then you the exalted thread controller will allow posting by that person. But if your a Christian or a Catholic well you should just leave so that I can be free to say a bunch of mean-spirited hateful things about Christians unchallenged.>
I am not a thread controller. As I said--but somehow you do not understand--I would certainly defend your freedom of speech right to post here. How many times to I have to say that before you hear me? Catholics and Christians are certainly welcome here, and I would assume that most of the people who post here are Christians of some denomination or another. I do not say mean-spirited, hateful things about individual Christians, although I do discuss political and historical issues that are related to Christianity. Many issues are discussed here, and that is simply one of them. You can leave or stay as you choose.
<Do you honestly think you own this thread or something Christine?>
No, I don't in any way think I own this thread. That would be impossible at SI, wouldn't it? Anyone is free to post anywhere. At the same time, I do believe that I should at least be welcome to post here without being harassed and insulted constantly. If you want to talk about ideas, or have some facts, and can discuss things respectfully, that kind of input is always particularly welcome.
<If you want to post a bunch of garbage about Christians or Catholics on this thread, rest assured Christine, I WILL respond. No matter how much you dislike it.>
Ahhhhh, the truth seems to be coming out now about your motives. You believe you are on a religious mission. This is exactly one of the things I don't personally care for about the far religious right in America--they have a tendency to try to control the ideas and behavior of that part of the society which does not agree with them. I am not posting garbage about Christians or Catholics, however. I often quote the Pope, for goodness sake, and have quoted Christ positively here, and the Buddha. In fact, I have also consistently stated that I have enormous reverence for Christ, although not for some of his followers who I believe twisted his teachings for their own selfish purposes. It is my right in America to believe that, and to express my beliefs. At the same time, there are many wonderful people who are Christians, and some of them are my friends and loved ones, and churches do some very positive charity work. The things I do talk about of a historical and political nature which pertain to Christianity are found in history books. Perhaps you should do some research at the library or something.
<Just like before, I stuck to the issue. The level of homelessness has little or nothing to do with Christians kicking their children out in the street. I would challenge any honest study which looks at the teenage homelessness problem to discover that.>
Just like before, you stuck not exactly with the issue, but with your own belief system, which is pretty much unfettered by any actual study or understanding of the reality of the issues. Here are some more urls which deal with the causes of homelessness on a more factual basis:
www2.ari.net
teleport.com Is Homeless
www2.ari.net
hshmission.org
Incidentally, while a two-parent family is less likely to be poor, and poverty is one cause of homelessness, many teenagers, women and children who become homeless do so because they are escaping physical, sexual or emotional abuse in the home. So saying that the important cause of homelessness is coming from a single-parent family is simplistic, at best. And since one-quarter of children who are gay are immediately told to leave their homes when they reveal their sexual orientation to their parents, certainly one of the causes of homelessness is conservative Christian parents who are the ones who push them out into the street. But I am not arguing that this is a primary cause of homelessness, just one of many. Homelessness is a very complex issue, but you seem to want to reduce it to illiteracy, and broken families. Illiteracy is a small part of homelessness. Poverty is the primary cause, in all of its ramifications, and if I understand your libertarian political beliefs correctly, you would choose to provide less--not more--tax money for things like medical and psychiatric care for the poor, and HeadStart classes, and shelter programs staffed by professionals who evaluate each homeless person and try to get them on their feet and independent again, whatever that takes.
<The parents of runaway teenagers are much more likely to have come from Godless pagan, non-christian homes than christian ones.>
Really? Can you cite even one statistic which would show this to be the case? As I said earlier, most pagans are very moral and ethical, because they don't have automatic rules to live by drummed into them at church and have to consciously decide on what is a happy and healthy and moral way to live their lives. I am pretty confident, however, that a pagan parent would be less likely to throw a gay teenager out of their house onto the streets, because pagan parents would more likely understand that their child is not simply a sinner, or a disgrace to them, and cannot help having a particular sexual identity.
This rejection of gay children is definitely the behavior of the religious far right in America. As I pointed out, even the Pope is urging parents of gay teenagers to love and accept their children as they are. I am also pretty sure that conservative Christians are much more likely to hit their children with belts than are pagan parents. Pagan parents believe that babies and children are lovable the way they are, and are without sin. They aren't so interested in controlling and dominating their children as in loving them gently, and allowing them to unfold and grow up healthy without terrible emotional and physical scars. I have never ever hit my child, and she has grown up intelligent, emotionally healthy, and with very high moral standards.
Good parenting is not very closely associated with the religious beliefs of the parents, except for the negatives I pointed out where parents are interpreting the Bible to mean that they should beat and reject their children. As I said before, escaping from abusive homes is one of the primary causes of homelessness for women and children, so it would certainly seem that pagan parents are not much of a causative factor in homelessness. It would be interesting to see what percentage of homeless teenagers grew up in conservative Christian homes, however. I suspect it would be pretty high, although I cannot prove that, and I try to carefully make it clear when I am just talking off the top of my head. It would be refreshing if you did the same.
You have revealed your erroneous bias, however, that pagans are somehow inferior to people who believe in god, or act in a less moral and ethical manner. I would have to call your feelings about that BIGOTRY, because they are based on hate and fear and misinformation, not anything factual at all.
<You can believe a television show all you want Christine. I will continue to believe what I have seen with my own eyes on the street.>
60 Minutes is a well-respected network news program, Michael, and their statistical data is solid. While you may interact with some homeless youth in the Bremerton/Poulsbo area, I have lived up there, and I can tell you that gay youth who run away from--or are thrown out of--their homes there would be more likely to end up in San Francisco, where we have programs to help them, and there are not quite so many hate crimes against them.
So I don't think you are seeing all the aspects of homelessness. And of course there is that disturbing statistic that 30% of all teenage suicides occur in gay children, so some of them are killing themselves before they find the program in which you participate. While your anecdotal experience is certainly worth talking about, it would not be considered a thorough or accurate scientific study of the causes of homelessness.
<Now I've got to get back to Star Trek. Those Nazi pagans are really gonna get it from Janeway now!>
As we have discussed before at Feelings, there is a respectable argument to be made that the Nazis came into power, and were able to torture and kill so many Jews, because of complicity not only by Catholics (which the Church has recently acknowledged), but because over a very long time in Europe, Christian religions had been very discriminatory against Jews, and so the good Christian citizens of Germany, who were aware, incidentally, of what was happening, did not rise up and protest. Same story for the gays and gypsies who went to the ovens--they were outcastes from good Christian society. |
