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To: grasshopper who wrote (2970)	3/12/1998 10:12:00 AM
From: Tim Luke	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 9343

Grasshopper, I do many trades a week and I NEVER use stop orders, lets say for example you have a stop loss in at 19 1/2 on a stock that closed at 20. They will bring the price down snatching up your shares and then back up the stock goes.

To: grasshopper who wrote (2970)	3/12/1998 10:15:00 AM
From: Diana	Respond to of 9343

It is a Fact of Life that stops in the hands of MMs will be taken. It is why I sit in front of the screen. The only properly executed stop is the buy/sell I place myself. Sad but true. Put unattended money on Wall St and it will be picked up. I'm sorry they slammed you.

To: grasshopper who wrote (2970)	3/12/1998 10:15:00 AM
From: Secret_Agent_Man	Respond to of 9343

MM's can see your stops when they look at thier screen and will lower the price to grab those shares if they see enough of them then take the stock right back up now it will cost you 10Kx 0.75 or grater plus commis. to get it back, so in essence, if you like the stock loosen up your stops or take them off if you are longer term. Otherwise the MM's will jerk your chain all day long. bg

To: grasshopper who wrote (2970)	3/12/1998 10:15:00 AM
From: CYBERKEN	Respond to of 9343

FWIW I use only mental stops based on closing price. Gives me both time and control. Learned this the hard way.

To: grasshopper who wrote (2970)	3/12/1998 1:40:00 PM
From: R. Bond	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 9343

grasshopper, Very sorry to hear about your bad treatment at the hands of the Market Muggers. Check out this post: exchange2000.com. >>Another point on stop-losses: they must be mental, if your trading Nasdaq; if you place a physical stop-loss, a MM will drop his price for an instant to trigger your stop, and steal your money...guaranteed.<< And this thread may help to sharpen your savvy: exchange2000.com. If you search SI for threads used by Short Term Traders, you may learn some new protection techniques. Cheers, Bond