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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Intrepid1 who wrote (18329)	3/13/1998 11:47:00 PM
From: Dwight E. Karlsen	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Back on the crusade against Christians, huh purething? Your hateful ilk were NEVER wanted in the USA; not during the founding of our country, not ever. Proof from two founders follows, one who was an open Deist (Franklin), and one who may have been a Deist, (Jefferson). While Benjamin Franklin was serving as an emissary to France, he wrote a pamphlet, Information to Those Who Would Remove to America, written for those Frenchmen who were considering a move to America, or who might send their children there for studies or further opportunity. Franklin was in France--home of "enlightenment", land of the rejection of religion, bastion of atheism and marital infidelity; notice his description of America for the French: 1 Bad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be a comfortable consideration to parents. To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is not only tolerated, but respected and practiced. Atheism is unknown there; infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an Atheist or an Infidel. 1 Benjamin Franklin, Works of the Late Doctor Benjamin Franklin Consisting of His Life, Written by Himself, Together with Essays, Humorous, Moral & Literary, Chiefly in the Manner of the Spectator, Richard Price, ed. p. 289. In his "Notes on the State of Virginia, Jefferson declared: 2 And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. 2 Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia (Philadelphia: Matthew Carey, 1794), Query XVII, p. 237. 3 "Thomas Jefferson, while President of the United States, became the first president of the Washington D.C. public school board, which used the Bible and Watt's Hymnal as reading texts in the classroom. Of the Bible, Jefferson said: 4 I have always said, and always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens. 3 David Barton, The Myth of Separation, 1992, p. 130. 4 Herbert Lockyer, Last Words of Saints and Sinners* (Grand Rapids:Kregel, 1969), p. 98.*

To: Intrepid1 who wrote (18329)	3/14/1998 3:11:00 AM
From: WalleyB	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

... new right wing, born again, agenda driven bibles. Puerthing, The greek text that was translated into that new translation reads pretty much the same in the older versions, king james, and American standard (to mention the more well known). A word for word translation from the Greek, which is the language that the New Testament was written in, bears this out. The difficulty comes from the lack of a Greek word that translates directly to our word for Homosexual. The greeks did not refer to them as such. But rather used the word, Arsenokoites, which has for a root the word man or male but refers by connotation to the old testament word sodomite. While the greek language appears at first blush to be a little obtuse it really isn't. A fact known by few except Greek and Bible Scholars is that the Koine Greek used at the time of the First Century is superior to the Greek used prior and that which is used today. For instance the word love is often noted because of the different varieties it comes in. So it is with the word for mankind, Only there are not so many different varieties of that word. A newer version than the one you sited could for instance use the word gay. But you won't find that word in the new or old testaments original texts. Once you dug into the original text however you would see the context of the words they did use. That's why I said the folks in the last 20 years have more doubt than our forefathers concerning what the bible says because there is a dearth of knowledge concerning the book and it's text as well as other problems that have convoluted the teaching and understanding of folks, myself included. That's a broad generalization, I admit, since for centuries there has been much descent and confusion about what the main tenants of christian teaching are. But there are certain subjects upon which all have agreed and this one in particular is the one to which I am refering. So, while the words may not say what you might want them to, they were written that way long before the right wing born again version of christian made it's presence known in the late 20th century. regards, jim