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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: O'Hara who wrote (18701)	3/16/1998 9:31:00 PM
From: Bill Ulrich	Respond to of 108807

&#133err, let me guess. Since the idea of 15 Commandments has been widely speculated, (and parodied in a Mel Brooks film), let's attempt to determine what those may have been: 11. Thou shalt not be a gay scoutmaster 12. Thou shalt not desecrate mattress tags 13. Thou shalt not covet thy neighboor's BMW 14. Thou shalt not take the name of Gates in vain 15. Thou shalt exercise logic and openness in thinking, of freewill, except when considering the homosexual question. I was just guessing. Afterall, I'm just a web geek. All I know is what I read in the square-headed girlfriend, in front of me (for probably too many hours of the day). -MrB

To: O'Hara who wrote (18701)	3/16/1998 11:41:00 PM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Shalom, thank you for coming over to discuss this issue of homosexuals. Since we started talking about it I have learned some things, and would like to share them with you: 1. The Bible can be interpreted in many ways, but MANY people, including priests and ministers, would dispute that the Bible says anything negative about homosexuals. It actually seems to be talking about idolators, homosexual prostitutes, and heterosexuals having homosexual sex. Here is a url for you about this subject, analyzing Biblical passages. I would be interested to talk to you some more after you have read it, to see what you think. postfun.com 2. Almost all the people in America who force their homosexual teenaged children out into the street are conservative Christians, not all sorts of parents, as you claim. Here is a provocative quote: GENOCIDE OF GAY AND LESBIAN YOUTH One of the greatest past sins of the Christian church was its wholesale torture and extermination of innocent people during the "witch" burning times, from circa 1400 to 1792 CE. We feel that the greatest current sin of the Christian church in North America is its contribution to the high suicide rate among lesbian and gay youth. We believe that the more conservative Christian denominations in North America are currently indirectly responsible for deaths of American gays and lesbians at a rate greater than the churches exterminated "witches" during the late Middle Ages and Renaissance. Such a statement requires supporting evidence which we are pleased to supply. And here is the url for the underlying source material: religioustolerance.org And here is a very good web page generally discussing teenage homosexuals, and homophobia. Not only do all these web pages together refute your claim that all sorts of parents reject their children, and make it clear that it is conservative Christians who do this, but they also reiterate the original 60 Minutes statistics which have been challenged on this thread--that 30% of teenage suicides are homosexual children, and that 25% of homosexual children are totally rejected by their parents and asked to leave. This web page also discusses homophobia, and its probable underlying causes, which have to do with repressed attraction to members of the same sex! religioustolerance.org I also found this quote quite relevant, from the same web page: Some people with low self-esteem appear to need to identify some minority that they can hate and feel superior to. Anyway, Shalom, I would be happy to discuss this issue with you further. I am sure you must know, incidentally, that worldwide, most AIDS patients are heterosexuals, and that is sort of a red herring for the purposes of this discussion. I am now totally aware of the Biblical passages which can be interpreted as anti-homsexual, so you don't need to quote them to me. I do hope you actually read all the information I have collected for you, so we can have a meaningful discussion. Go in peace, Shalom! Christine

To: O'Hara who wrote (18701)	3/16/1998 11:52:00 PM
From: greenspirit	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Hi Shalom, here is a little different perspective...Article... THE SUICIDE SCAM Homosexual activists have shamelessly exploited the issue of "gay youth" suicide to promote pro-homosexuality programs in schools, hyping a non-existent "epidemic" to silence their critics and frame the debate before an emotionally sympathetic public. As Jennings said, "In Massachusetts, no one could speak up against our frame and say, 'Why yes, I do think students should kill themselves.' This allowed us to set the terms of the debate." There are two major problems with Jennings' assertion. Firstly, his claim of a rash of "gay youth" suicides is baseless, and relies mainly on a thoroughly discredited paper by a homosexual activist. Secondly, even it were true that self-perceived 'homosexuals' are prone to commit suicide in higher numbers than other youth, it does not mean that schools should be confirming young teens in an immoral and dangerous lifestyle. In fact, disproportionate rates of (adult) suicide in even the most "gay-friendly" areas like San Francisco indicate that this is yet another sad fact of homosexual life, not the fault of society. As Alan Medenger, a former homosexual, says, "It is tragic, even criminal, to lead a child into homosexuality because he or she showed some degree of sexual confusion in adolescence." And yet confirming "gay youth" in their homosexuality is precisely the goal of GLSTN and countless other homosexual organizations who routinely repeat the claim that homosexual youth make up one-third of all youth suicides. The figure has its origins in a paper San Francisco gay activist Paul Gibson wrote that was part of an Health and Human Services report on youth suicide. Gibson's report, which was repudiated by HHS Secretary Louis Sullivan, made the claim that "gay youth" made up "30 percent" of all youth suicides by extrapolating from another bogus "gay" number -- that homosexuals represent 10 percent of the population. David Shaffer, a Columbia University psychiatrist and one of the world's leading specialists on adolescent suicide, said, "I struggled for a long time over [Gibson's] mathematics, but in the end it seemed more hocus-pocus than math." Shaffer also wrote that Gibson's and others' claims that gay suicide is common is "an excellent example of how bad research provides misleading answers that can come home to roost." To illustrate the tendentious nature of Paul Gibson's "research," it is useful to examine some of his other claims and recommendations found in the paper he submitted to HHS and later repudiated by Secretary Sullivan: "A substantial number of youth -- perhaps one in 10 -- have a primary gay male, lesbian or bisexual orientation...." "Transsexual youth who are open about their identity face extreme abuse and rejection from their families....The only known course of treatment is to help transsexuals adjust to their believed gender identity and obtain sex-assignment surgery. Most transsexual youth, however, are unable to obtain or afford the help they need in resolving their identity conflicts..." "Homosexuality...is a natural and healthy expression of human sexuality...All youth need to be presented with positive information about homosexuality that presents it as a viable adaptation....It is important for schools to hire openly gay male and lesbian teachers to serve as role models and resource people for gay youth." "Religions need to reassess homosexuality in a positive context within their belief systems....Religions should also take responsibility for providing their families and membership with positive information about homosexuality that discourages the oppression of lesbians and gay men. Faiths that condemn homosexuality should recognize how they contribute to the rejection of gay youth by their families and suicide among lesbians and gay male youth." So, the next time you hear a homosexual activist claim that a "government study" found that 30 percent of all youth suicides are committed by homosexuals, remember that the same gay activist who produced that "study" also calls for reaching out to "transsexual youth" and says religions need to shed their homophobia. OTHER PRO-GAY PROGRAMS IN SCHOOLS Beyond hyping suicide as a justification for homosexual-affirming policies in schools, gay educators and their allies are promoting a variety of other strategies to accomplish their goal of normalizing homosexuality, among them: Promoting the celebration of "Gay History Month" in schools to provide students with positive homosexual role models. In these programs, notables like First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt are often portrayed factually as "gay" without giving contradictory historical evidence. Even if such figures did have homosexual tendencies, many question why this aspect of their lives should be stressed in history lessons. Brilliance is, sadly, often accompanied by destructive behavior. Certainly quite an impressive list of historical notables could be compiled if it were to be decided that schools should celebrate "Alcoholic History Month" or "Adulterers History Month." Creating "gay-straight" youth alliances in high schools, which frequently become conduits for pro-homosexual propagandizing to student bodies. In the conservative town of Dedham, Massachusetts, this was done with taxpayer monies as parents were stunned to learn that a "gay-straight" alliance (which they didn't even know existed) had received $2,000 in state funds to distribute a questionnaire on "gay" issues to all homerooms at the local high school. One of the survey's questions was, "Do you feel lesbian or gay people should be allowed to marry?" It goes without saying that "gay-straight" youth groups play perfectly to a youngster's tendency to adopt political positions contrary to those of his or her parents. Hence rallying behind the "civil rights" of fellow "gay" students wins ample student support and will be fully exploited by adult homosexual activist groups like GLSTN. Affirming the right of openly homosexual teachers to proudly affirm their gay "identity" to schoolchildren. One lesbian teacher recently made headlines by using a pink triangle to inform students that her class was a "safe zone" for "gays." Parents were not informed of the decision. GLSTN held five regional conferences for homosexual teachers during the 1996-96 school year. At one such conference in Los Angeles, lesbian activist Donna Redwing declared, "We're here, we're queer, we're in the classroom." The assembled GLSTN-affiliated teachers cheered Redwing's declaration. Hence GLSTN conferences serve to radicalize homosexual teachers, making them more likely to openly promote homosexuality as something positive (or at least benign or neutral) to their students when they return to their classrooms. Address the issue of how to combat "homophobic" attitudes in young schoolchildren (kindergarten through sixth-grade). The homosexual activist group GLAAD (Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation) recently called on the FCC to demand that children's television ("Ernie and Bert," etc.) be used to teach children about the "horrors of homophobia." Homosexual activists are deadly serious about using the education process to teach kids that homosexuality is okay, and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a "bigot." If parents are not vigilant in ferreting out such propaganda and countering it, they will witness the rise of a generation hostile to five millennia of Judeo-Christian teaching proscribing homosexual behavior. ______________________________________________________________________ Interesting food for thought. :-) Michael

To: O'Hara who wrote (18701)	3/31/1998 6:51:00 PM
From: Charliss	Respond to of 108807

<there is only one unforgivable sin, and homosexuality is not it.> This is true. It is lack of imagination which is the unforgivable sin. Not only that...hold on to your seat here...only human beings can be forgiving or unforgiving. God isn't even aware of sin, a truth which, I do admit, takes a little getting used to. However, no one said our lessons here would be easy ones. Best, Charliss usual disclaimers apply, do your own real life research