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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: greenspirit who wrote (20278)	4/13/1998 2:01:00 AM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Michael, even when I am paying you a compliment, you seem to take issue with it. What would I have to do to make you happy? Some conservative parents are rigid, and some are not, but Montessori schools, at least the ones I know about, are very child centered, and deal with education and brain development in a very healthy way. In San Francisco, really conservative parents send their preschoolers to academic nurseries which are very depressing--all the little desks in a row, pencils and paper, but not a very exciting place for children, with a very heavy emphasis on learning how to read and write, at age three. Or they send them to religious preschools. I have clearly said that there is a big difference between an occasional spanking and child abuse. I also said I would never hit my child, but that is a personal opinion. It seems really quite foreign and bizarre to even think of hurting a being that grew inside me. Not all people feel like that, however. Most normal children grow up okay if they have been spanked occasionally, and also loved a lot, including most of the grown-up friends I have. Being hit a lot is one of the risk factors for a life of crime. That does not mean everyone like that will end up a criminal, but it is one of the things kids who are in the juvenile justice system have often experienced. Being hit a lot, and hit with belts and paddles, and being hit when you are a baby, or a teenager, are all really violating actions on your psyche, and can do a lot of harm. They send several messages, including 1)the way to solve conflicts is to beat up on someone, 2)big people hurt little people, 3)I must be a really bad person, 4)my mommy and daddy don't love me, or protect me. Of course, as Nancy pointed out, some parents believe hitting is better than ignoring a child. I am not sure how we all got to a place where we are making such drastic choices, though. The end result of a lot of hitting, to the extent that it becomes abusive, is often a child or teenager who is very angry, damaged, lacks self esteem, is emotionally shut down, and traumatized. Children like this tend to get into a lot more trouble than children who have been gently loved and disciplined without much violence. They also have more learning difficulties. I know you are very interested in children learning to read. Do you think a child who lives in fear of beatings is going to be able to concentrate on his studies very well? I am not sure why you interpret my talking of moderation as complete capitulation. I have managed to rear a daughter without hitting her, and she is not at all spoiled, so I know it is possible. But as I said before, I agree with you that there is a big difference between occasional open-handed spankings and child abuse. I don't think you would find any expert on children anywhere who believes hitting teenagers is okay, or babies, or really frequent spanking, or spanking with belts or other objects. I don't recall asking you to have a closed mind about spanking, Michael. I don't believe I have any influence on you at all, as a matter of fact, so certainly I would expect you to parent in a way you feel comfortable. Do any of us really impact on each other much at all? I see this as more of a place where a lot of people who enjoy expressing their opinions have a forum where they can do that, and hope others are listening, but I have no delusions that we are persuading each other to change much. I still think this process is pretty interesting. I also bet you are a good enough parent to be consistent and fair without spanking your children very often.

To: greenspirit who wrote (20278)	4/13/1998 12:27:00 PM
From: Rambi	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Michael, If you asked CW why he hasn't taken the car and stayed out all night or taken drugs or flunked classes he would say, because my parents would kill me. Obviously that is a slight exaggeration and maybe you're hearing the equivalent from your young men. And my guess would be that they weren't responding to the threat of whupping anyway, but to the caring and love that the threat represented. I don't think spanking is a very productive or desirable response to transgressions. As an ex-probation officer and social worker and the mother of two teens, I have some practical experience in the area and my feeling is that beating or whipping falls on the bottom rung of effective parental discipline; it's a response that arises from frustration, anger, and it indicates an inability to use methods that demand self-control and higher levels of reasoning and patience and consistency on the part of the parent. If a child is raised equating brute force with caring, as it seems some of the young men you meet do, then I won't say it hasn't had some positive results in their lives. However, I really do believe that if the proper foundations are in place, a child should not and need not be beaten. We have never used physical discipline on our boys (past toddlerhood with CW and never with Ammo) and would never tolerate it being used. Our boys were raised with clear rules and consistent consequences and it is those techniques that work with them. As you know, they are wonderful kids, but there has been a lot of time and effort and agonizing gone into their upbringing. Sometimes it would have been a lot easier to wallop them. (Well-at least CW). Physical force sends the message that might makes right and that it's ok to hit weaker, dependent,even helpless individuals, that it's ok to lose control in that way, which is too often the way beatings occur. My guess is that as your children get older you will find less need for physical control because you will reason and talk to them. And that if you stop and think about it, the urge to use physical force is a reaction to a feeling of helplessness, anger and either an unwillingness or a lack of knowledge how to take the time to use other methods. It's just not the ideal way to go and someone like yourself who cares and thinks and is committed to the best for his kids probably won't need to resort to it.