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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (21234)	5/3/1998 1:13:00 AM
From: Tom Kiesel	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

I think it might be better for you not to try and undermine said pagan rationalism by putting it in quotes, if that is what you were trying. If it wasn't, then all apologies for my rudeness. As for my own bit on this topic Emile, I am very unsure of my religious standing right now. I was raised a Catholic, but the ground is shifting under my ideological dream house and I'm just sitting under a door frame waiting to pick up the broken dishes (or broken conceptions of God) when it's over. A philosophy class did that to me, got me thinking. Right now I'm theistic, but maybe not a Christian. Anyone would have to admit that the bulk of the teachings of Jesus are highly enlightened. This would be quite a world if everyone did unto others as they'd have done to them. Love your neighbor as yourself? I'm all for it. On other points, I have to wonder though. There is a passage where Jesus, despite figs not being in season, smites a fig tree because it doesn't have fruit for him and his apostles. This seems a bit strange from the son of God. I'm not going to comment on the whole concept of Hell beyond saying I find it completely out of line with an all-loving God. Oh, and I find the condemnation of homosexuality and birth control by the Catholic church to be foolish and hypocritical, respectively. So Emile, as ever I'm between two arguments on this one; a temperate zone between polar opposites. I'll end up either arguing with everyone or keeping everyone from each other's throats. Another distinct possibility is that I once again lose the free time needed to check on this and drift off for another month. In any case, I'm out of words and tired. -Tom Kiesel "If there's anything more important than my ego around here, I want it caught and shot now" -Douglas Adams(in some character or another)

To: Emile Vidrine who wrote (21234)	5/3/1998 1:36:00 AM
From: epicure	Respond to of 108807

Firstly, I have read Christian philosophers who managed to be both rational and devout. And I have met religious people in college who also managed to be intelligent, rational, and faithful. One does not need to BE a purple cow to recognize one, now, does one? Secondly, why do you think man's dreams penetrate beyond the physical universe? We are matter and energy, our thoughts arise out of the workings of the matter and energy we call ourselves, why would they not be part of the physical universe. Something need not be tangible to us to be part of the physical universe- quarks, for instance, or at least that is my thinking at this time. But perhaps I am wrong. All my ideas are in a constant state of flux, which leaves me receptive to data I may gather in the future. You are of course free to believe your thoughts are penetrating beyond the physical universe- but it is just belief. Thirdly, why do you think man has a sixth sense that suggests a soul? Much more simple to say man has a wish to exist, and not die, and thus invests himself with an incorruptible and permanent existence. It is irrational to say this kind of fantasy proves anything. Many civilizations have had these dreams of another world- does a belief in Valhalla prove there is a Valhalla? I rather think not. You beg the question Emile. The fact that you belive does NOT prove your belief. But as you are irrational I can understand why you would not see the profound circularity of all your arguments. I am endlessly understanding, Emile. Fourth, and finally, you have not travelled my road or you would be me and not you. It is highly arrogant of you to think you know anything of the road I travel. I have imbibed the knowledge of the ancient Greeks and found it breathtaking, and relevant. I have studied comparative religions, and found that the similarities between religions say much more about man, than about God(s). All philosophies, all religions, have something to offer, imo, but for me there is no one truth. And to define your faith as "reality" is just silly Emile. Reality is the quality or state of being real. Real is having objective independent existence. If you had a rational bone in your body you would realize that "belief" by its nature does not have independent objective existence. There is not one "rationalism" for agnostics and another for Christians. The rules of logic work for people of any denomination or lack thereof. So if you wish to say you have travelled my road, I suggest you read a great deal more than you have read thus far, and spout off a great deal less.