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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: pz who wrote (16819)6/1/1998 2:44:00 PM
From: Sam Ferguson  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 39621
 
No Paul I am not belittling Jesus the mortal man. Because you have grown in a tradition that is generally accepted to some degree by nearly all, you cannot overcome the association. Jesus was a mortal born of mortal flesh from mortal sperm and a normal mother. The miraculous birth was no more true than other pagan Gods used to depict
works of nature seen in the pattern of the universe.

If you will study religious origins you will find the answers that will be available. When you limit all knowledge of God to man made book such as the bible, you limit your understanding of God. Faith has never been and never will be more trustworthy than fact. I have never asked you to accept anything I may post without proving it true in and of itself. All I have ever done is to show you that others truths should never be accepted on faith. You have a brain God gifted and you are responsible for you to use it. The power to question and use reason is what makes you a higher class of God's manifestation than an animal.

I only ask you not to let your truths harden your heart where you are not allowed to learn truth when it comes your way. Blaming the failure of Christian teaching to make America Godly on the Devil or Satan, hardly relieves the fact it has been a failure. If you open your eyes you can see the harm it does other people.

You conveniently read what you want. I have written enough here that if put to the test, you cannot answer, I have pointed out flaw after flaw with scripture as truth. If you think it a lie, then fine. If you think you can lie to yourself, it's impossible. Look at the history records and try to prove a historical Jesus lived at time stated as the truth. It can't be done. You can find a record of the man who came close to this one about two centuries before Christ.

I don't question Christ is Savior of all. Shame you haven't been introduced. Jesus the mortal body cannot save me any more than you or anyone else. Until you can see the difference in Jesus and the Christ spirit, you continue to shut out the real and only Savior oF Christ.

You belittle both Christ and God by limiting them to the man Jesus.



To: pz who wrote (16819)6/1/1998 3:02:00 PM
From: Sam Ferguson  Respond to of 39621
 

(St. John of the Cross -- 1542-1591)

LOVE'S LIVING FLAME (Llama de Amor Viva)

"The soul, taking account of her obligations, seeing that life is short and the path of
eternal life narrow . . . that time is uncertain, the account strict, perdition very easy,
salvation very difficult; knowing, on the other hand, the great debt that she owes to God
for that he has redeemed her for himself alone, for which she owes him all the rest of the
love of her will, and the return of His love to her . . . is touched with fear and inward grief
of heart at so great perdition and peril, and renounces all things, ceases from all business
and delays not a day, neither an hour. Then, with yearnings and sighs that come from the
heart, wounded now with love for God, she begins to invoke her Beloved. . . ."

1. "Oh Love's living flame,
Tenderly you wound
My soul's deepest center!
Since you no longer evade me
Will you please at last consummate:
Rend the veil of this sweet encounter!

2. "Oh cautery so tender!
Oh pampered wound!
Oh soft hand! Oh touch so delicately strange,
Tasting of eternal life
And canceling all debts!
Killing, death into life you change!

3. "Oh lamps of fiery lure,
In whose shining transparence
The deep cavern of the senses,
Blind and obscure,
Warmth and light, with strange flares,
Gives with the lover's caresses!

4. "How tame and loving
Your memory rises in my breast,
Where secretly only you live,
And in your fragrant breathing,
Full of goodness and grace,
How delicately in love you make me feel!"


DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL (Noche Oscura)

1. "On a dark night,
Kindled in love with yearnings
--Oh, happy chance!--
I went forth without being observed,
My house being now at rest.

2. "In darkness and secure,
By the secret ladder, disguised
--Oh, happy chance!--
In darkness and in concealment,
My house being now at rest.

3. "In the happy night,
In secret, when none saw me,
Nor I beheld aught,
Without light or guide,
Save that which burned in my heart.

4. "This light guided me
More surely than the light of noonday
To the place where he (well I know who!)
Was awaiting me--
A place where none appeared.


5. "Oh, night that guided me,
Oh, night more lovely than the dawn,
Oh, night that joined
Beloved with lover,
Lover transformed in the Beloved!


6. "Upon my flowery breast,
Kept wholly for himself alone,
There he stayed sleeping,
And I caressed him,
And the fanning of the cedars made a breeze.

7. "As I spread his locks,
The fresh wind from the turret
(on high like the early morning breeze of a new day)
Wounded my neck with its gentle hand,
And caused all my senses to be suspended.


8. "I remained lost in oblivion,
My face I reclined on the Beloved;
All ceased
And I abandoned myself,
Leaving my cares forgotten
Among the lilies."

These are the stanzas of the Prologue to "Dark Night of the Soul (Noche Oscura)," one of the
grandest of all Christian Mystical writings if not all such writings, in general, by San Juan de
la Cruz (St. John of the Cross) born Juan de Yepes near Avila in Spain in 1542. They are
entitled: "Songs of the soul delighted at having reached the high state of perfection, the union
with God, by way of spiritual negation." Actually, these stanzas, and the commentary written
to elaborate upon them, were part of a larger work entitled "The Ascent of Mount Carmel."
This work, together with "Spiritual Canticle" and "Love's Living Flame"--two related works
of poetry and prose--were written between the years 1578 and 1586, part of this time in
prison (San Juan, a member of the Carmelite Order, was imprisoned by a rival faction within
the Church).

In these four works, San Juan describes the entrance upon the Spiritual Path of the beginner
or spiritual aspirant, the problem of human appetites and how these affect the soul, the
shortcomings of beginners, the stages and trials experienced during the Dark Night or
Purgation of the Soul, and the way to climb to that high state of perfection or attainment of
the Mystic Union of love with God--the Spiritual Marriage.

Do you think this man's punishment was just????